BTilke

HSV has been the great defender of Hamburg, as opposed to others (like us) who don't think the city is the best place to visit in Germany.

But an article in today's Guardian has opened my eyes. Apparently, Hamburg is the German city that best understand's the German male's psyche. Check out:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/ar...075662,00.html

Mannergartens fur alles! ;-)

Budman

Hamburg is not my favorite city in Germany, but it is a wonderful place to visit. If someone were touring the northern part of Germany, Hamburg would certainly be on my list for places to visit.

Mannergartens! What a hoot, and what a wonderful idea. Leave it to the Germans.

hsv

BTilke,

I guess it's never too late to open one's eyes to reality.

If the Männergarten is the feature that attracts you as a tourist, so be it. Enjoy your stay!

For others, who would like to explore the beauty of the town, I incidentally get some support from German newspaper "Die Welt", issue of last Friday, that names Hamburg as possibly Germany's most beautiful city.

http://www.welt.de/data/2003/10/31/189878.html

Whereas I admit that beauty is subjective, I would assume that it's safe to say that Hamburg is among the top three German (big) cities. So I guess I am with Budman on this.

Cheers to you both (if only I would know how to depict one of those nice mugs)
hsv

Ingo

hehe, but there are only three big cities in Germany: Berlin, Hamburg and Munich

No, seriously, I am glad tourists discover the beauty of Hamburg. I totally agree that it is one Germany's most appealing cities. What said Franz Beckenbauer? "It is the one and only cosmopolitan city in Germany."

rex

Before this, might one presume that the alternative for wives going shopping was to drop off their husbands on the Rieperbahn?

lol...

and...

Best wishes,

Rex

Budman

I don't think my wife would drop me off there. Interesting place, but maybe a nice pub.

Tat

Not enough said about Hamburg...
Please, tell WHY do you like it so much ?

hsv

Tat,

Hamburg is Germany's second largest city (Berlin is bigger). It has one of Europe's busiest ports which is an integral part of the city- and while industrial not at all ugly. Tours on boats are available (as I had already pointed out in another thread of yours) and are quite an experience. There is a certain beauty of huge seagoing ships right in the center of the city.
Apart from this industrial and industrious area, Hamburg is also one of the least densely populated cities in Germany. There are numerous parks which make the city very green- and most of the city is penetrated by small rivers or canals connecting these. Thus, Hamburg features more bridges than Amsterdam and Venice combined. You can rent sailing and rowing boats as well as paddlewheelers and kanus right in the city center on the Alster lake- and with the exception of the sailboats you can explore those canals by them, too.
There are also quite attractive boat tours of the canals of the Alster during which you can take in splendid views of quaint and posh gardens and the respective art deco era homes.
Furthermore, Hamburg is close to both the North (rougher climate) and Baltic (calmer) Seas.
Apart from its natural beauty, Hamburg is a (at least for German standards) liberal and cosmopolitan town that is widely labeled as Germany's gateway to the world. This has been established by the for centuries booming port and the amount of worldwide trade related to it. This has also led Hamburg to become one of the wealthiest German cities (according to the amount of taxes paid per capita). This shows in the mixture of immaculately restored art deco era buildings and new, modern edifices as well as in the prevalence of an interesting cultural life, featuring an active Musical scene, world class ballet by American director John Neumeier at the Hamburg opera and countless other theatres. Interesting museums are also featured.
On the downside, Hamburg will not cater to the German lederhosen cliche so dominant elsewhere in the world (an absence I truly appreciate). It also was heavily bombed during WW II, which is why there is not a real ancient Old Town as there might be in other cities in Europe.
Come here and find out for yourself why this has become of Germany's most desirable places to live- apart from what others might claim!
hsv

Tat

Thanks,
printed out and will be used, definitelly.
Anything else ... may be ???

BTilke

Hamburg obviously has its charms and good points, but I would surmise there are millions of Germans who would not call it the country's "best place to live!" (one opposing view comes from:
http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/stoilom..._germany_w.htm

Also, Hamburg also has often been linked to terrorists and drug dealers, as the Asia Times reported in an article noting that three of the known terrorists involved in Sept. 11 lived in Hamburg:
"The city has a long history of having bred and harbored terrorists. Ulrike Meinhof, the leader of the late 1960s/mid-70s "Baader-Meinhof Gang", self-described as the "Red Army Faction", was a Hamburg journalist for the left-radical magazine "konkret" before she engaged in her terrorist pursuits. The left radical scene has always been tolerated in Hamburg - admired even by the city's intelligentsia. Hamburg has dealt leniently for years with leftists and anarchists illegally occupying entire city blocks. It has been and continues to be a favorite city as well for drug addicts and drug dealers."

Of course, people say much worse things about Brussels, where I live ;-)

(But I don't claim it's the best place to live in the country, although I do think it's often under-rated as a place to visit).

hsv

BTilke,

let's just get one thing straight:
I do not claim that Hamburg is either the best place nor should it be the only place to visit when you are going to Germany. It has more qualities, though, than usually expected from tourists who usually are headed somewhere South in Germany.

I know for a fact that Hamburg is extremely popular with many people here in Germany- but as with everything, there of course may be some opposing opinions- such as yours or some other people.
If you don't like- fine, do not go to Hamburg!
An increasing number of tourists over recent years has not shared your opinion, whatsoever.

And regarding the aforementioned terrorist connection: Come on and get a life!

As I stated, this is one of Germany's biggest cities, where a lot of different cultures and people with different opinions mix- and do so quite well. Respect for the different is a quality that is widely appreciated by the people living here (as apparently opposed to some other cities in Western Europe). When there are some sick minds who turn to terrorism this is not a problem of one city, but a cultural problem that concerns a complete society or at least country. The R.A.F. (which has long disappeared) was active throughout Germany and even Europe, not only in Hamburg. Admittedly, some planning for the Sept. 11 attacks had been done by some Arab students in Hamburg, but that could have been anywhere else- this is just a coincidence that is almost ridiculous to mention in a travel related post!

BTW there are countless people still travelling to the US although their foreign policy under the presiding government is at least questionable!
This is an aspect, however, completely irrelevant for travel, so please refrain from such superfluous and bigot concerns!

Respectfully
hsv

hsv

Tat,

sorry, had to work that last post off, first.

Do not be put off by those safety remarks. Admittedly, this is a big city and it does have the same problems as other cities all over the world have regarding drug use and criminals.
There are neighborhoods, that you have to be a bit cautious in, just as you would be when you are in New York, Los Angeles or anywhere else, if this is not some small village in the countryside.
In general, I would avoid the small side streets of Lange Reihe in St. Georg district, which is right by the central station. Lange Reihe itself is pretty much safe (and multicultural)- but be a bit cautious if you do decide to go there.
There has been much more repressive police action over the past two years as a result of a newly elected middle/ right government of the city (that was pretty controversial and is due for new elections in by the end of Feb.). In general, the feeling of safety here has been improved, I would say.

What I forgot to mention on the pro side is that there is one of the most attractive restaurant scenes to be found in Germany. In case this, too should get doubted, I am referring to the number of star rated restaurants in the three gourmet guides of Michelin, Varta and Gault Millau.
There are some delicious gourmet options, some upscale but not too expensive restaurants and excellent places featuring ethnic cuisine of almost all cultures.
Should you require any tips for restaurants, feel free to post and I will gladly try to come up with some recommendations.

Honestly -and trying to be objective- I would really look forward to your trip!

Cheers
hsv

StCirq

I don't know if Hamburg is over- or underrated, but I loved my one visit there, as well as the town of Flensburg closer to the Danish border.

And I am an unabashed lover of Brussels, which too often gets a bad rap.

Ingo

I have been to Hamburg only once (shame on me since it is Dresden's sister city) and I LOVED it. In fact, it is the only German cosmopolitan city. The reason might be in its history as Germany's gateway to the world (the port).

HSV mentioned all the important facts, so I don't want to waste time doing the same

Ingo

hsv

Ingo,

hope you had a nice week off- I presume it was vacation?

I know about this, as it was mentioned by a poster in a different thread, where someone was asking for advice where there were any porcellain shops and manufacturers in towns of the greater Dresden area. As I am not such an expert, I referred them to Meissen.

Maybe you would care to give some more detailed input on that. The thread was headlined "German towns" only, so it is a bit hard to come across.
You may search for my screen name, the last post on that was made on 01/20/2004 and should be at a position around 14 to 20.

Greetings to Dresden
hsv

Ingo

Thanks HSV!

Yes it was a vacation. I will post a trip report (with a link to pictures) this week. Seems to work out as a very detailed report, probably way too detailed. We'll see if the Fodors folks will enjoy it ...

I will have a look at that thread you mentioned later. Meissen is a good recommendation, but there is also a cheaper porcelain manufacture in Freital near Dresden ("Dresden porcelain&quot. Maybe worth a look.

Greetings to Hamburg from a sunny and snow covered Dresden!

Ingo

Tat

Hi everyone !
Thanks for replies.
HSV, I do know that I've heard about Hamburg since ... always, and now when my friend lives there for 12 years - who can tell me to change my mind and not to go, espesially when question was about Hamburg as tourist attraction, not as "if there terrorists in Hamburg?"
Some people just can't hold their poop.

Ofcourse I will LOVE to hear about restaurants and may be some info that I can surprise my friend, who actually the Hamburger !

Cheers

BTilke

HSV: First, you need to relax. It's not necessary to be so hypersensitive about your city. This is an open forum and I'm every bit as entitled to my opinion in not liking the city as you are to shout its praises from the rafters. If I freaked out in a similar fashion every time someone on this forum called Brussels boring, bland, soulless, yadda yadda yadda, I'd have had a nervous breakdown (I may think they haven't done their homework but I don't start insulting them personally or tell them they need to "get a life&quot.
However, since apparently I have to provide the gory details, here was OUR experience in Hamburg.
We were living in Germany for several months last year and opted to take a day trip to Hamburg (leaving very early and catching a late train home). Our German relatives rolled their eyes and suggested going elsewhere (their car was broken into on their last two trips to the city) but we went.
Right outside the train station, we were accosted by an obvious junkie "asking" for money. We declined and about 20 seconds later he puked right in front of us (Tat, how's that for "not holding your poop" or anything else, for that matter?). That could happen anywhere, of course, although it hasn't yet. Later, we stopped in a pub/tavern/stube for coffee (and a beer for my husband). The bartender was pretty surly and "inadvertently" stuck the cost of the beers his buddies at the bar were drinking onto our tab. He was smirking as he gave us the bill, perhaps thinking we wouldn't check it. He was even more surly when we pointed out his "mistake."
Then a few blocks later, we walked past some young guys who were, shall we say, of Middle Eastern extraction. They heard my husband and I speaking in English and started shouting at us "F--- Bush! F--- America!" My husband calmly said, in German, that in fact, he was Canadian. They shouted back "You're all the same!" (I think Canadians would disagree...) After that, we more or less gave up on the day, decided our relatives may have been right after all, and caught an earlier train home.
So HSV, and Tat, the info about drug dealing and terrorists in Hamburg has resonance for me as a TOURIST, or in Bush-speak, as someone engaged in tourism-related program activities.
My negative view of Hamburg was based on my EXPERIENCE there and I certainly have the right to that opinion. I don't make it a habit to run down places here on Fodors. But while our overall stay in Germany rated an 8 out of 10, our time in Hamburg, was a minus-two. Simply put, Hamburg didn't exactly float our boat--torpedoed it, more accurately.

Tat

BTilke,
it is not funny anymore, it becomes ridiculous !
Seems like you have more problems then Hamburg, so, please, stop trashing this thread ... hmmm ... it is already been turned upside down from tribute to Hamburg to poison spit on the city.
Is this canadian way of dealing with things ???

hsv

BTilke,

I am so relaxed, I can hardly manage to sit at a table

Furthermore, I truly acknowledge that this is an open forum and everybody here just as anywhere else in a free world is entitled to their opinion. I respect your opinion and I admit that evidently your experiences were not that pleasant. So of course you have every right to state your opinion especially since it's based on (admittedly regrettable) personal experience. I do believe hoever, that these experiences could have happened anywhere, but evidently you are free to feel negative and surely say so. I had hoped to have made that clear by stating that if you did not like it- then fine with me.

I do not believe that I am "hypersensitive" (I am so relaxed that I don't take this as an insult) and I would like to make it clear that I did not "freak out" (still very relaxed at any time here. I also don't think I insulted you- and if you do feel so, I am truly sorry for any misleading phrases that may have caused this.
I just felt that your reasoning was slightly off-line. According to your logic that as Ulrike Meinhoff used to work in Hamburg (even before becoming a terrorist) it might be better to refrain from visiting this city, it would prevent people from travelling to Germany/ Austria as these countries produced a mass-murderer called Hitler. It would be impossible to travel to Chicago (Al Capone was active there), to L.A. (South Central is gang land), in Sicily there are the roots of the Mafia, in St. Petersburg and Moscow there are also notorious racketeers etc. I just don't subscribe to that sort of view.

I don't "shout praises from the rafters" on Hamburg here. It may have occurred to you that I hinted to Tat that there indeed are neighborhoods in the city that might better be avoided (although not too many of them are likely to be visited by tourists anyway), which I hope demonstrates that I am trying to stay objective. At the same time I am convinced that there indeed are a lot of positive experiences to be made in Hamburg and I feel inclined to tell so to anybody wanting to visit the city anyway. I did not try to lure somebody into something he/ she did not want to do.

Best regards to Brussels
hsv