DiAblo

Last year I made my first journey to France, I traveled with an English friend who has been to France many, many times and has quite a lot of friends there. In fact we stayed with a French family of his acquaintance. Odd thing is that my English friend speaks NO French (other than “merci” and “bon jour”) and gets alone reasonably well.<BR><BR>I decided to take a crash course and learned the basic homilies, greetings, the names of several dishes, etc. to my surprise it seemed that my friend still fared better than I. I made no effort to sound like I was a grand master of the tongue; I just tried to be polite. It actually seemed to irritate more people than it pleased. Eventually I just gave up trying even though the family that we stayed with told me I spoke the little that I knew reasonably well and much better than most Americans. My English friend and I wondered if indeed the rejection might be based purely on the fact that I am American (?)<BR><BR>Anyhoo, my questions is this: How many of you have gone to a country where you spoke none of the native language and a.) How did you fare b.) Did you regret it, c.) What was the reaction to you, d.) Would you do it again? I’m planning a fairly extended trip to Germany in 2004 and wonder if I should brush up on my college German or not to even bother?<BR><BR>I know that it's often not so much of a struggle in large cities but we plan to spend a lot of time in the hinterlands and, at least in France, that sometimes proved to be the problem.<BR>

Statia

I have always tried to learn at least the very basics before visiting a country: hello, goodbye, excuse me, where is the bathroom, etc.<BR><BR>I think that it is a courtesty to at least attempt the language of the country you are visiting. I have always found that as long as I attempt their langauage, they are usually very courteous and respond to me in English.<BR><BR>I quite honestly have not run across very many rude people in my travels, both in the US, and abroad. I think it always depends on how we approach a travel situation, as to how people will respond.<BR>

kaudrey

When I went to Prague in 1993, everyone spoke 2 languages, Czech and German, neither of which I speak. Plus, they have a different alphabet, so we had no hope of trying for phonetics. <BR><BR>I had a blast! We managed just fine, ate a few things we are still not sure what they were, and only got lost a few times (which is part of the charm in Prague anyway).<BR><BR>BTW, when I was in Paris 12 years ago, I spoke the introductory French you are talking about, and people seemed to appreciate the effort and were very helpful. Maybe they are different now, but my experience was all positive.

Barb_in_Ga

I'm a proponent of learning the language if possible. My first trip to Paris was a delight, but I hadn't brushed up on my long ago HS French. Last year, I took a class &quot;French for Business and Travel&quot; and used tapes in the car every day for a couple of months before the trip. I still wouldn't claim to be fluent by any stretch of the imagination, but I loved being able to ask directions, make purchases, and be able to read signs, etc. <BR><BR>I also took an Italian class last year, and found learning basic Italian to be very easy; the Italian pronunciations are very straightforward with few silent letters and rule breakers. <BR><BR>In both countries, but particularly in Italy, I found most people to be very accomodating. Generally in France, after discovering that their own level of English was as good or better than my French, the conversation would go on in English. One shopkeeper, when I asked (in French) if he spoke English, said(in French) We'll see--do you speak French? I then told him what I wanted, and he said There that wasn't so hard! I understood you very well. That gave me a little more confidence.<BR><BR>Part of the joy of travel is experiencing the culture and stretching our learning skills. With all the time spent planning a trip, it makes sense to maximize the experience.<BR><BR>

DiAblo

“I quite honestly have not run across very many rude people in my travels, both in the US, and abroad. I think it always depends on how we approach a travel situation, as to how people will respond.”<BR><BR>Whoa! I don’t want to seem overly defensive, but before we launch ourselves off onto a tangent that was never intended…<BR><BR>I never meant to imply that I’m a lightening rod for rudeness (that in itself implying that I’m somehow the root of the “problem” by some sort of inherent anomaly in my interactions with people.)<BR><BR>Perhaps my post was unclear but I don’t want to run the risk of anyone misunderstanding the original intent and giving me the old Fodor’s lecture that if I make nice-nice others will reciprocate. (I know that, perhaps better than many.) We had a fine time in France and I definitely intend to return and have, in fact, been invited back by the family we stayed with for another trip next year.<BR><BR>I never meant to imply that I was treated rudely for attempting the language, just that it didn’t work very well and that I felt that my efforts to pick up something of the tongue were wasted. My traveling companion made NO effort to speak French and seemed to fare every bit as well as I. <BR><BR> I would like to know how others deal with the problems of being “functionally illiterate” in a foreign country without reading anything into the original post other than what is there, which is summed up rather nicely with the alphabetized queries at the end.<BR>

rex

&lt;&lt;Plus, they have a different alphabet, so we had no hope of trying for phonetics.&gt;&gt;<BR><BR>I'll speak out against this opinion - - this is not an attack against kaudrey who posted it.<BR><BR>I just cannot agree with this. Are we to believe that people from the Czech Republic should simply throw up their arms in hopelessness to learn OUR &quot;different alphabet&quot;. What about Greeks? Arabs? Russians, Japanese, Koreans or Chinese?<BR><BR>Traveling to another country means getting some familiarity with the people, their culture and their lives. And nothing rests at the heart of a people and its culture any more than their language.<BR><BR>I am learning those Czech phonetics even as I write this, in preparation for our May trip. I may not go beyond a 500 word vocabulary, but reading phonetically words I see on menus or in a dictionary should not take all that long to master.<BR><BR>Not making that effort would only diminish MY enjoyment of their country.<BR><BR>Best wishes,<BR><BR>Rex<BR>[email protected]<BR>

KT

Kaudrey, I think maybe you had a little too much of that Czech beer, because they do use the same (Latin) alphabet there. <BR><BR>Now as for the question, while I agree that it deepens the travel experience to speak the language well, it's not a prerequisite, and it's pretty impossible unless you keep going to the same countries. I'm pretty decent in Italian and can limp along in French, but I really couldn't manage to also learn -- I mean really learn -- Czech, Flemish/Dutch, Hungarian, German, Danish, Spanish, etc., even though I've travelled solo in countries where all of those languages are spoken.<BR><BR>I always learn the things like please and thank you; the basic question words like when and where; and &quot;I'm sorry, I don't speak [fill in the language].&quot; Then I bring a small dictionary, try to be creative and to act suitably humble, and hope for the best. I've had some awkward experiences, but I've never been totally stranded. Sometimes I resort to sign language, drawing pictures, or pointing to my phrasebook, and sometimes, like in rural Hungary, I've had to ask teenagers for help, since they're the most likely to speak some English. I don't know excactly how I get by, but I just do. Still, I'd be reluctant to try this on my own in rural Mongolia!

Kate_W

I agree with posters like Statia who emphasised that, an absolute minimum, you should have the basic words (sounds and symbols) for the basics: toilet (mens and ladies), plane/train/bus, entrance/exit, hotel, excuse me, thank you, please, police, help, anything to do with a medical condition you might have. Beyond that, it's a function of how much time you'll spend there and your own curiosity and civility.<BR><BR>There are some countries where many people speak some English (eg Scandinavia, Germany, Benelux countries, France, Italy - among the countries I've travelled in). I was surprised, however, by how little English is spoken in Spain (although it's relatively easy to decipher some of the basic vocabulary).<BR><BR>As mentioned above, I found many people spoke English in Germany, but I had a lot of trouble deciphering signs (compared with Italy, France and Spain, for example). Your school German is probably enough to keep you going through the right door (entrance/exit, mens/ladies), but of course you'll have a lot more fun if you study the language. And, if you're planning an extended trip there, why not incorporate a week of language school at the beginning - it's a good way to meet people, too.<BR>

KT

Oh, I'm sorry I misspoke about Czech. They do have basically the same alphabet, but it does have diacrictal marks and it is pronounced differently from English, so I guess that's what Kaudrey meant. I was thinking s/he meant that it was completely different characters, like Greek or Russian.

KT

&quot;Diacritical&quot; I can't type. Okay, bye for now!

Richard

My wife and I have bicycled Europe every year for the last 10 years. These are self-guided tours, just my wife and me, our gear in our panniers. We make no reservations since we're never sure how far we'll cycle that day. We learn the basics for politeness, thank you, excuse me, etc. We have done this in Austria, the Czech Republic, Italy, France, Germany, Holland,Denmark, Suisse yada yada and have never had a problem with language partly I think because people are surprised that a couple of geezers (when we started I was 56, my wife 47) and American were touring their country on bikes. We do OK, we've eaten some strange (to us) things but we've always found a place to sleep at the end of the day. I think I've answered a thru d and now we are planning for this year, from the Bodensee (Lake Constanz) to Geneva.

MHS

How well do you get by when you don't know the language? Just fine! I can read some French (thanks to 3 yrs -- but wouldn't even attempt to pronouce more than &quot;good day&quot; &amp; &quot;thank you&quot -- Italian since it's based on Latin &amp; I'm the take-2-years-of-Latin generation (same limit on speach) - more Spanish than I would like since we seem to be losing our Yankee-English heritage here in USA. <BR><BR>You can not only get by, but have lots of fun even if you don't speak the language. Once such event was attempting to explain to a @18-year-old salesclerk in Toledo that I wanted a charm for my granddaughter's braclet -- <BR>once I pointed to myself, then to her, then indicated a spot 3ft off the floor she caught on with a grin &amp; enthustically taught me how to say &quot;graddaughter&quot; in spanish. Then there was the time in Poland the young waitress tried to explain a menu item -- chicken breast! We really should relax and stop worrying about how we dress (other than to avoid attracting the unwanted attention of pickpockets) &amp; knowing the language -- we are, after all, tourists, not &quot;new&quot; citizens of xxx. We are there to enjoy seeing places we have read about, that are beautiful &amp;/or historic, to enjoy a few days or weeks with a loved one. <BR><BR>Which brings me to my last comment: &quot;Traveling to another country means getting some familiarity with the people, their culture and their lives.&quot; -- Maybe that's your intent and purpose, Rex, which is all fine and good for you (to each his own). But there's also my reason for travel -- as I've said above, to see the home Elizabeth I grew up in, the cell that held her mother Anne, the homeland of poor Catherine (Henry's first wife), etc. I refuse to eat pizza in Europe, avoid the globized chains, etc., &amp; I'm not afraid to try &quot;unknown&quot; foods or coping with turkish toilets, but spend my precious leasure time learning a language or about someone's daily drudgery -- no thanks!<BR><BR>ps - wish a few of those &quot;new&quot; (and not so new) Americans would show as much interest in learning our language &amp; culture as those who came here in the '30s &amp; '40s did.

Christina

I have a few thoughts on this -- <BR><BR>First, Diablo, I understood what you were saying and agree with you even though I don't think anyone else will. It is very common in Paris for them to not exactly &quot;allow&quot; you to speak French and to switch to English right away, and not even seeming to like you speaking French. I actually speak French fairly well, and sometimes shop clerks, etc would switch to English even though my French was better than their English. Outside Paris, this does not happen, and, in fact, in Provence, Lyon, Alsace, etc, even Quebec, I might add -- no one switches to English when I talk to them.<BR><BR>I always study a language a little if I'm going to be in a country for several weeks, but it is impossible to try to study a language if you travel a lot and are only in a place a few days (except to memorize greetings, etc, the usual). I studied Czech for quite a while but that was not just because I visited there but because I have a particular interest in that part of the world (some ancestry, not Czech, but Polish) and study Central/Eastern European classical music, also. They do use the same alphabet, of course, just have some different &quot;accent&quot; marks -- just like French has the same alphabet, I don't think you'd say it is different. I learned enough Czech to not only read a little (which was helpful, I mean in train stations, signs, etc) but to make purchases and order in Czech. Now, they LOVED that because that is really unusual, for Americans to speak even minimal Czech. There are ex-pats in Prague who don't know hardly any even though they've been there for years. They were extremely gracious and enjoyed my trying to speak it and let me know it -- I think that is the difference you are talking about. <BR><BR>I don't agree with Rex that memorizing a lot of words is that useful or a good goal because I don't consider that speaking a language. I think it is more useful to understand grammatical structure and verb tenses, etc, than to have a goal to memorize several hundred words. You can always look words up in a dictionary easily enough.<BR><BR>I'm surprised you memorized homilies, though? Was that a slip in words? What French homily did you memorize?

rex

I never think of it as &quot;memorizing&quot; words. I think of it as LEARNing vocabulary. How else to communicate without knowing words?<BR><BR>Can you explain? Prosim?<BR><BR>

orgy7

I basicalyly become a realy load Mime who plays pictionary..<BR><BR>If I'm in japan or somewhere and I need too go too the airport I would say airport, then make a VRRRRRRR sound as I flail my hand like a plane.. then when that dosn't work it would be time too take out the big guns which is a pen and the back of a 7-11 reciept.. I would draw a horse looking up into the cloads and a DOT in the sky. which sygnifies an airplane.. as too get my point accros I'd point at the dot and myself.. <BR><BR>&quot;OH you wan go Narita&quot; <BR><BR>the sad part is that I have an electonic translator and one of those picture language map things where you point at a colorfull picture of a condom too get a smirk.. but i always forget too whip them out..

StCirq

I feel really out of my element in a country if I can't speak the language well enough to have a very basic conversation with someone, but that doesn't stop me from traveling to places where I don't have any linguistic ability at all. I do try to learn some basic words and phrases no matter where I go, and that does tend to serve me well. Also, there are often linguistic surprises - I found out on a trip to Greece and Turkey, after I had valiantly tried to learn some Greek and Turkish, that German got me by quite well. I've never been to Asia, but can imagine myself resorting to gesticulation, onomatopeia, and basic slobbering quite easily.<BR>What I don't understand is why DiAblo's British friend appeared to &quot;get by&quot; better than DiAblo did. The French in general certainly don't think any more highly of the Brits than the do Americans when it comes to speaking their language.<BR>I also agree with Christina that in Paris especially, if waiters or shopkeepers even suspect that you are an English speaker, they will start speaking English with you, hand you a menu in English, whatever. I always politely hand back the English menu or tell them in French &quot;I've come to France to speak French,&quot; and they are almost always delighted at that. Sometimes, however, you get into a sort of linguistic tussle with people - they want to practice their English, and you want to speak French. If that's the case, I relent and let them have their way (but I still insist on a French/German/Italian menu, because the translations on the English menus are often bizarre or incorrect).<BR>I think, DiAblo, that your efforts are laudable and whatever your experience with your British friend, you should continue to use as much French as you can.

Cassandra

First, the essential phrase to learn in every language for every country you'll ever go to (including the one called marriage...!...): &quot;I'm sorry,&quot; &quot;excuse me,&quot; &quot;forgive me,&quot; or whatever is the most common way of apologizing. Begin any request that way. Respond to anything you don't understand that way. I don't intend for the linguistically challenged to grovel, but I think that politeness begins with knowing how to say you regret not speaking the language.<BR><BR>In that context, when dealing with the French -- for whom language is a political, philosophical, even moral issue -- it is very important to begin attempting to speak French even though they will almost certainly insist you speak English. The effort is what counts, not the success. For other languages, making the effort is also appreciated but more likely to confuse people into thinking you actually do speak the language, so be careful you don't master how to ask a question with no clue how to understand the answer.<BR><BR>After &quot;I'm sorry,&quot; &quot;please,&quot; and &quot;thank you,&quot; and things like &quot;where is....,&quot; I try to learn the numbers -- amazing how important it is to know them for times, prices, etc.<BR><BR>Not knowing the alphabet/character system is a real handicap. In Greece I was very glad I had learned the alphabet through math, fraternity and sorority names, and the Russian alphabet. It's not that you will be writing notes or reading the paper, but if you get lost and can't read street names, a map is useless. <BR><BR>And as StCirq points out, even if you don't know the local language, you might find out that you and they have a third language in common. I had an interesting, although very basic (&quot;do you have brothers?&quot conversation with some Italians on a train because we both spoke a little Russian. In Dubrovnik, we found it important to make clear that we weren't Germans but very useful to be able to use some German.

klondike

It is not unusual to be able to use a third, foreign-to-both parties, language to communicate...it's rather interesteing. I always feel you can get more out of the experience if you do know the language, however.<BR><BR>To MHS-your last comment regarding not needing to know the local lingo to be able to enjoy their art, culture, history is not entirely correct IMHO. Knowing the nuances of the language allows you to enter a people's psyche and more fully understand/appreciate the people. Traveling can be a one-way experience (and that's okay) but I find it a lot more fulfilling when it's an exchange both ways. I come away with a better understanding of human nature.<BR><BR>Okay, I'm off my soap box...

BTilke

If I am only going to visit a country very briefly, then I'm not going to learn more than a few words of that language. This year, I've got trips to Budapest, Prague, and Istanbul on the schedule. Each of them will only be about 3-4 days long. I will learn a few basics--hello, thank you, how much, please--but that's about it. I already speak French well enough to work in the language, am moving beyond tourist German, can manage in Dutch, and am learning Italian. I have a trip to Copenhagen coming up in two weeks, but it's only a 3-day trip, so I don't think I'll be studying Danish very hard. <BR>If you plan to visit a country for more than a few days or want to make repeat visits, then make the effort to learn the basics of the language. But if you're just passing through briefly with no plans to return, don't feel guilty about not knowing more than a few words or phrases.

Statia

DiAblo:<BR><BR>I honestly didn't mean to imply that you are a lightening rod for rudeness. I was more or less just offering up advise for &quot;anyone&quot; that the way we approach a travel situation has a lot to do with how we are treated.<BR><BR>I feel fortunate that my bad encounters have been far and few between, and I'm sure that most others feel the same. However, I didn't mean to imply that you necessarily had a bad experience, just a different experience from my own attempts at the wee bit of French I know.<BR><BR>