How do you say it??
Sep 2nd, 2004, 07:28 AM
#21
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Since I have never had formal Italian education, I will not try to counter your points, Carol - - but my post was about trying to understand what the heck is meant by "jhoh" versus "joe"?
What do you understand this to mean?
Are we to believe that the "gio" in Grigio" is somehow different from the "gio" in "buon giorno"?
I would be the first to agree that the "zhur" of "bonjour" is entirely different from the "gior" of "buon giorno".
What do you understand this to mean?
Are we to believe that the "gio" in Grigio" is somehow different from the "gio" in "buon giorno"?
I would be the first to agree that the "zhur" of "bonjour" is entirely different from the "gior" of "buon giorno".
Sep 2nd, 2004, 07:40 AM
#22
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I'm not sure why you're trying to understand the difference, since "jh" is not the sound of the soft "g" in Italian, except with certain regional accents. If you travel to various regions and listen carefully, you will hear many slight regional differences in the way standard Italian is pronounced.
Sep 2nd, 2004, 09:35 AM
#24
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Wow, I seem to have caused a lot of confusion - sorry!
I guess my phonetic example of what I meant doesn't make sense to any one but me.
What I meant when I expressed the sound as "jhoh," was like the sound noted as the French "jour" of "Bon jour." At least that's what it sounded like to me when I was corrected by the woman in the shop. Obviously, it must be a strong regional dialect or I totally misunderstood.
I always accept the help of Italians when I am in Italy with regards to grammar and pronunciation. With this one exception, most people I spoke to complimented me on my pronunciation...I don't know...
My Italian teacher and his wife will be coming over for dinner later this month, this should make an interesting topic of conversation.
I guess my phonetic example of what I meant doesn't make sense to any one but me.
What I meant when I expressed the sound as "jhoh," was like the sound noted as the French "jour" of "Bon jour." At least that's what it sounded like to me when I was corrected by the woman in the shop. Obviously, it must be a strong regional dialect or I totally misunderstood.
I always accept the help of Italians when I am in Italy with regards to grammar and pronunciation. With this one exception, most people I spoke to complimented me on my pronunciation...I don't know...
My Italian teacher and his wife will be coming over for dinner later this month, this should make an interesting topic of conversation.
Sep 2nd, 2004, 01:33 PM
#25
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<i>What I meant when I expressed the sound as "jhoh," was like the sound noted as the French "jour" of "Bon jour."</i>
I knew that's what you meant, Mamma_Love. But I guess, as has been pointed out to us, it should have been written as "zhoh", even if the "zhoh" sound is not the sound of the "gio" in Grigio.
<i>I would be the first to agree that the "zhur" of "bonjour" is entirely different from the "gior" of "buon giorno".</i>
Rex, I'm sure that's true for standard Italian, as Carol has pointed out. But I've definitely heard Italians pronounce the "giorno" as "zhor-no" (or thereabouts), likely regional thing.
I knew that's what you meant, Mamma_Love. But I guess, as has been pointed out to us, it should have been written as "zhoh", even if the "zhoh" sound is not the sound of the "gio" in Grigio.
<i>I would be the first to agree that the "zhur" of "bonjour" is entirely different from the "gior" of "buon giorno".</i>
Rex, I'm sure that's true for standard Italian, as Carol has pointed out. But I've definitely heard Italians pronounce the "giorno" as "zhor-no" (or thereabouts), likely regional thing.
Sep 2nd, 2004, 02:03 PM
#26
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In standard Italian, the "gi" of "grigio" is definitely pronounced like the "G" of "George". But Italian is chock full of regional dialects, so it's highly likely that at least one of them pronounces it like the "j" of the French "jour".
It must be remembered that modern Italy is quite young, formed around the time of our American civil war. Prior to that, a host of different languages were spoken on the Italian peninsula. Siciliano was spoken in Sicily, Calabrese in Calabria, and so on. See a map of Italy showing 21 of these at "http://www.netaxs.com/~salvucci/ITALmap.GIF", and there were many more. See "http://members.tripod.com/~rjschelle...Nums.htm" for a list of the first ten numbers in 20 different Italian dialects (click on the links "Northern Italian", "Central Italian", and "Southern Italian"
.
- Larry
It must be remembered that modern Italy is quite young, formed around the time of our American civil war. Prior to that, a host of different languages were spoken on the Italian peninsula. Siciliano was spoken in Sicily, Calabrese in Calabria, and so on. See a map of Italy showing 21 of these at "http://www.netaxs.com/~salvucci/ITALmap.GIF", and there were many more. See "http://members.tripod.com/~rjschelle...Nums.htm" for a list of the first ten numbers in 20 different Italian dialects (click on the links "Northern Italian", "Central Italian", and "Southern Italian"
.- Larry
Sep 3rd, 2004, 07:17 AM
#27
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This is not quite on point, but just to prevent any misunderstanding, I want to emphasize that there's a huge difference between a DIALECT and standard Italian, spoken in a regional way, with a regional or local accent. The dialects of Italy (except for those few that are not Romance dialects) are separate languages (or not quite languages), which evolved various local forms of Latin vulgate, just as the dialect that became standard Italian evolved from the form of Latin vulgate that was spoken in what's now Tuscany. The dialects of Italy are not corruptions of Italian or mispronunciations of Italian.
But almost everyone in Italy has some accent hen speaking Italian, just as almost everyone in the USA, the UK, Canada, and Australia does when speaking English. Really extreme local accents, when speaking the standard language, are usually not such a good thing, but someone can be an excellent native speaker of Italian, or of English, and have some mild to moderate regional accent.
There may be some slight regional differences in the way that the "gi" sound is pronounced by native Italian speakers in various regions. I didn't happen to notice. But it should sound basically the same when a good native speaker is pronouncing it.
My Italian professor in college was from Imola (in Emilia-Romagna). She was highly educated and spoke excellent Italian, but with a noticeable regional accent. I used to notice that her "ci/ce" sounded a little different from most Italians', and I used to think she just had a very tiny speech defect. But then a few years after I graduated, I visited Ravenna (fairly near Imola) and heard people who sounded just like her. Last year I was in Dozza, which is extremely near Imola, and again I heard that accent that I remembered from so many years ago.
But almost everyone in Italy has some accent hen speaking Italian, just as almost everyone in the USA, the UK, Canada, and Australia does when speaking English. Really extreme local accents, when speaking the standard language, are usually not such a good thing, but someone can be an excellent native speaker of Italian, or of English, and have some mild to moderate regional accent.
There may be some slight regional differences in the way that the "gi" sound is pronounced by native Italian speakers in various regions. I didn't happen to notice. But it should sound basically the same when a good native speaker is pronouncing it.
My Italian professor in college was from Imola (in Emilia-Romagna). She was highly educated and spoke excellent Italian, but with a noticeable regional accent. I used to notice that her "ci/ce" sounded a little different from most Italians', and I used to think she just had a very tiny speech defect. But then a few years after I graduated, I visited Ravenna (fairly near Imola) and heard people who sounded just like her. Last year I was in Dozza, which is extremely near Imola, and again I heard that accent that I remembered from so many years ago.
Sep 4th, 2004, 04:11 PM
#28
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An Italian friend of mine who lives just outside of Modena told me on one of my visits there that the simple rule to remember about Italian is that EVERY VOWEL is pronounced EVERY TIME and THE SAME WAY. Following the rule and accepting completely the correctness of prior postings for pinot, it would be pee-no gree-gee-oh.
Granted there are likely to be regional differences and certainly not every syllable is pronounced with the same emphasis in every word, but his advice seems reasonable to me.
Granted there are likely to be regional differences and certainly not every syllable is pronounced with the same emphasis in every word, but his advice seems reasonable to me.
Sep 4th, 2004, 05:41 PM
#29
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Blue: I'm sure your Italian friend didn't mean to confuse you and make you think that the "i" which serves to make the "c" or "g" soft before "a" or "o" or u" should be pronounced as a separate vowel syllable. Ask your friend to clarify, or read the pronunciation section of a good introductory Italian grammar, or read the postings above on the hard and soft "g" .
Sep 4th, 2004, 07:30 PM
#30
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LOL . . .
After reading all of these well-intended replies, do you honestly think someone would misunderstand you if you requested Pinot Grigio in a restaurant.
By all means, pronounce any word as closely to the native language as possible, but I wouldn't worry if my dialect got in the way.
Isn't that what distinguishes us from others from various parts of the world?
We may sound funny, but will you forget us?
After reading all of these well-intended replies, do you honestly think someone would misunderstand you if you requested Pinot Grigio in a restaurant.
By all means, pronounce any word as closely to the native language as possible, but I wouldn't worry if my dialect got in the way.
Isn't that what distinguishes us from others from various parts of the world?
We may sound funny, but will you forget us?
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