How do you pronounce Chartres?
Apr 21st, 1999, 07:00 AM
#3
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hu ! <BR>Hard to explain : <BR>try "shyr-tra". <BR>The ch is soft, not like in english, so I put sh. <BR>y is like the a in cat -there is no "ye" sound, it's a short thing. <BR>the word is two step, hence the dash, it helps knowing how to stop on all the r I put, I know it's hard... <BR>I replaced es by a, for the s is never pronounced in French, and the a in the middle of a word is closer to our "e", it's almost not there. good luck. <BR>BTW : that's a major place to see in France. Try Vezelay too.
Apr 21st, 1999, 11:49 AM
#6
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ben, <BR>"shart" is almost as good, it's kind of hard for me, being french, to figure out how you guys are going to read this. <BR>I put the "r" at the end, one should hear it. If you put the e, it'll become like "albuquerque", which sounds "albuquerquEE" in american -that's so funny ! We say "albuquerc"... <BR>And about the "s", do I need to say it again : NEVER PRONOUNCE IT AT THE END OF A WORD. It's just like when we froggies forget to say the "s" in "he loves me"... <BR> <BR>BTW : Christy, you're question ain't no silly, people might not understand which city you're looking for. And that's the way to improve your french. For more live teaching, I'm home this week-end at 972-594-0632. Bored : wife is working.
Apr 22nd, 1999, 05:31 AM
#7
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I would trust Gregoire on this one, but there is some inconsistancy in this one. If you listen to a lot of American tv, for example Amazing Destinations on the Travel Channel, you will hear "Shart" (no e pronounced). However, I tend to say it like Gregoire, with a mild e (short "a" sound) at the end. Kind of swallow the r and add a short "a" sound. I think a lot of French people do pronounce the e's in words like this to make it softer and more melodious. If you listen to Edith Piaf's songs you will notice this in a lot of words.
Apr 22nd, 1999, 05:39 AM
#8
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It's my understanding that the ends of words are pronounced a lot more in songs than in speech--which is not for a moment to negate the value of listening to Edith Piaf. <BR> <BR>Really, I think we should just call Gregoire this weekend so he won't be bored and lonely while he wife works and so we can all practice those Rs (my biggest weak spot).
Apr 22nd, 1999, 09:36 AM
#9
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Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse things by throwing in the Edith Piaf analogy. Martha, you are right about the difference between speech and song. My point was that just as anywhere you go different people will pronounce it differently. For example, when I lived in Wisconsin, there was a town named New Berlin. It was obviously named after the capital of Germany, but the current prononciation in Wisconsin put all the accent on the first syllable. Another example comes from Germany, where some people have a very gutteral prononication of the "ch" combination, whereas others pronounce it more like "sh." A good suggestion perhaps would be to visit Chartres and ask a local how they pronounce the name of the city. I would be interested to know the answer when you find out.
Apr 22nd, 1999, 11:13 AM
#10
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NEVER pronounce the s at the end of a French word-- but if you happen to be in Southwest France where the place names are in the local language of Occitan, you MUST pronounce the s at the end of names like Vers and Mercues. Also the z at the end of Rodez-- but not the one at the end of St. Tropez! (And isn't it stuff like this that makes travel so much fun?)
Apr 22nd, 1999, 12:42 PM
#11
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Just when you think you've got it right, you find something that makes it questionable. I remember when my folks moved to Houston, and we were surprised to learn the the San Jacinto <BR>River is pronounced San Juh-sin-toe. (Of course some still think of Texas as another country.) <BR> <BR>I remember my French teacher telling us to "think" the "re(s)" at the end of words like Chartres (quatre, etc) -- then the word doesn't really end with the "t" but you're not overpronouncing the end either. It's not like its a whole syllable.
Apr 22nd, 1999, 01:26 PM
#12
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Martha, <BR>you're right, not only in songs but in every poem should you pronounce the "e" at the end of a word that is followed by a consonnant in the next word, and this word is in the same verse. This is a matter of rythm : song/poem writters will add an extra e if they need it for the rythm ; others will remove it in some cases, using tricks. For instance you can find "encore toi" or "encor toi", which is four sounds in the first case, and only three in the second case. BUT, if the word is at the end of the verse, since you breath before saying the next verse, the tailing e doesn't count. Example : <BR>"Mignonne, alons voir si la rose, <BR>qui ce matin avait eclose" <BR>=>don't pronounce the e of "rose", or the second one in "eclose". So the end will sound like "ROse". But the one of "ce" is there, you hear it. <BR>Now for more rules about songs/poems, cause that's one of my favorite things : If the e is followed by an other vowel, you won't hear it in that case, it's somehow swallowed -spanish do the same, but not only with the "e", but every other vowel, depending on the beat. In the example above, even though there is a comma after "mignonne", meaning you should stop slightly at the end of the word, the "e" is not heard, because it's somehow inside the a, it's just nicer not to put emphasis on it. <BR>Now I have to apologize for the confusion I will create in some of your minds -and I'm going to make a contradiction with my previous statement. If the word ends with "es", and the next word starts with a vowel again -any vowel-, when we speak most people don't pronounce anything, that's why I told you not to say it. But the high society in France considers -and that's good french- that you should link those two words, and pronounce the "s" in the middle, just as if the two words were connected. Example : <BR>"les rires et les pleurs" (= laughters and tears) should be pronnounced "les rires Zet les pleurs" ! And, in this case, it's no longer a matter of rythm, you officially don't have the joice, you ought to pronounce it ! This is the kind of things that evolve a lot, and nobody really pays attention to that anymore -but we should. I happened to debate on that last week with my wife -you're going to know everything about us two soon ! The problem is that most often you will be tempted, because English always pronounce "s" at the end of a word -we do that mainly in poetry/literacy. <BR>I think bottom line is remain flexible : when you listen french speaking persons, try to "guess" what they say. I do the same in english, even if it sometimes seems I'm slow : at least, I got it all ! <BR>Also be aware that there are many accents. Canadians are sometimes uterly non-understandable for us froggies. And south french are kind of singing, their accent is just great, especially in Marseilles/Toulouse areas. <BR>And most of all, don't think there's no way you can't get those things. It takes a child a couple of years to learn to speak, and most of them never pronounce the "e", nor the "s" -so be patient, and it'll come to you too ! <BR> <BR>Martha : I will only be available on saturday afternoon for a personalized pronounciation on-line lesso
Apr 22nd, 1999, 05:47 PM
#13
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I got such a kick out of this post. Gregoire, are you french? i liked the ronsard quote. i just did an analysis of that sonnet in my french lit. class. I think the best way to solve this problem is to actually call someone that can speak french and have them say it for you. It's really not as hard as you would think. so christy, did you figure it out yet anyway, or has everyone confused you?
