House Hunting in France
Jan 14th, 2017, 12:23 PM
#41
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The Sarthe, the Orne, and the Mayenne don't get a lot of attention from foreign visitors, though English people find this part of France (so close to England) delightful and have settled there, especially in the Orne, in noticeable numbers. Not enough that there are aisles of English products in the supermarkets, but enough that there are English enclaves.
We find a lot of charm in the countryside in this area. From looking in real estate agents' windows (with no hope of buying anything ourselves), I'd say this is an affordable area.
Mayenne claims to have more privately owned chateaux than other departments.
The Perche (near Remalard or Mortagne au Perche) is lovely but not that affordable since it's a weekend escape for many Parisians.
Personally, I would avoid a property near a farm, I wouldn't buy a mill, I'd avoid noisy highways or train lines, and I'd want to be miles from any place that's a popular tourist destination.
Please keep us posted. Nothing I like more than a vicarious property search!
We find a lot of charm in the countryside in this area. From looking in real estate agents' windows (with no hope of buying anything ourselves), I'd say this is an affordable area.
Mayenne claims to have more privately owned chateaux than other departments.
The Perche (near Remalard or Mortagne au Perche) is lovely but not that affordable since it's a weekend escape for many Parisians.
Personally, I would avoid a property near a farm, I wouldn't buy a mill, I'd avoid noisy highways or train lines, and I'd want to be miles from any place that's a popular tourist destination.
Please keep us posted. Nothing I like more than a vicarious property search!
Jan 14th, 2017, 12:30 PM
#43
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Ben les gars y en a par ici qui entravent que dalle a la france aux français à leurs politicards et leurs ouvriers.
Par contre par certains aspects cette discussion ressemble à l'une que l'on peut avoir au zinc du café du commerce.
Donc je laisse aux doux rêveurs le soin de relire les contributions de ceux qui ont vécu en france et leur souhaite bonne chance.
Sur ce bonne nuit à tous et à toutes.
Et personne n'a encore parlé de la mérule des banques et des notaires.
Par contre par certains aspects cette discussion ressemble à l'une que l'on peut avoir au zinc du café du commerce.
Donc je laisse aux doux rêveurs le soin de relire les contributions de ceux qui ont vécu en france et leur souhaite bonne chance.
Sur ce bonne nuit à tous et à toutes.
Et personne n'a encore parlé de la mérule des banques et des notaires.
Jan 14th, 2017, 01:36 PM
#45
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Hi Brilliantsulk:
My husband and I are also considering a purchase in west/southwestern France. We have spent many years looking at regions and drilling down in specific areas on the west of France. My husband is French and all of our family is spread over the west southwestern part of France which is one of the reasons that area is appealing to us. Now that the TGV has established better/faster routes from those areas, there are lots more choices open in terms of regions than say, 10 + years ago.
We have researched purchasing quite a bit now and have a niece who is a notaire, so that has been helpful, and we own a family property already with cousins and have been through extensive renovations, so I would be happy answer questions if that is helpful to you. I would be happy to talk to you about some of the considerations we have been looking at. My email is on my profile-feel free to contact me
My husband and I are also considering a purchase in west/southwestern France. We have spent many years looking at regions and drilling down in specific areas on the west of France. My husband is French and all of our family is spread over the west southwestern part of France which is one of the reasons that area is appealing to us. Now that the TGV has established better/faster routes from those areas, there are lots more choices open in terms of regions than say, 10 + years ago.
We have researched purchasing quite a bit now and have a niece who is a notaire, so that has been helpful, and we own a family property already with cousins and have been through extensive renovations, so I would be happy answer questions if that is helpful to you. I would be happy to talk to you about some of the considerations we have been looking at. My email is on my profile-feel free to contact me
Jan 14th, 2017, 02:30 PM
#46
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I don't know the law pertaining to foreign owners of French property who don't live in France, but if you are fiscally a resident here, the inheritance laws of France are applied. At least that is my understanding, after consulting with two notaires / tax experts in Paris. It isn't at all clear, with the new law. (and the law could change tomorrow).
Jan 14th, 2017, 02:38 PM
#47
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Sorry. I need to clarify what I said above. If you are a fiscal resident of France, French law will prevail over your estate. You can write your will stating that you want your estate to be handled according to your country of nationality, and that will be honoured after estate taxes etc. have been paid here in France, I believe. I find this confusing, but I have consulted with two experts who have told me this. As I said earlier, consult an expert before you invest a lot of money in this project.
Jan 14th, 2017, 07:50 PM
#48
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henricat,
Your understanding in your second post is the same as ours regarding inheritance taxes. We lived in and owned a primary residence in France for almost 7 years, just returning last year.
It is true your estate can now be settled according to the stipulations of a will drawn up in the States, the UK, etc. However, this doesn't exempt the French property in the estate from any French taxes owed. What it does change is the ability to leave your French property to whomever you choose, without having to leave a portion to your children.
Here's a gotcha, unless the situation has changed in the past year. My husband has two children, I have none. We purchased our house using a tontine which means the survivor inherits the house outright (there are other options now). So, were my husband to die first, I would inherit the house and vice versa. I could then leave the house to his children BUT as they are my step-children they do not receive the inheritance tax exemption that blood children receive. Most unfair, in my opinion.
I could well be wrong, as I said, just my understanding. There now are probably work arounds although we could not find any at the time it concerned us. We could have set up a will that if my husband died first the children each received 25%, for example, but both of us wanted the flexibility to benefit outright from what represented at the time a not insignificant portion of our estate. BTW, children are adults in their 30s.
I no longer keep up with French taxes so this may have changed.
Your understanding in your second post is the same as ours regarding inheritance taxes. We lived in and owned a primary residence in France for almost 7 years, just returning last year.
It is true your estate can now be settled according to the stipulations of a will drawn up in the States, the UK, etc. However, this doesn't exempt the French property in the estate from any French taxes owed. What it does change is the ability to leave your French property to whomever you choose, without having to leave a portion to your children.
Here's a gotcha, unless the situation has changed in the past year. My husband has two children, I have none. We purchased our house using a tontine which means the survivor inherits the house outright (there are other options now). So, were my husband to die first, I would inherit the house and vice versa. I could then leave the house to his children BUT as they are my step-children they do not receive the inheritance tax exemption that blood children receive. Most unfair, in my opinion.
I could well be wrong, as I said, just my understanding. There now are probably work arounds although we could not find any at the time it concerned us. We could have set up a will that if my husband died first the children each received 25%, for example, but both of us wanted the flexibility to benefit outright from what represented at the time a not insignificant portion of our estate. BTW, children are adults in their 30s.
I no longer keep up with French taxes so this may have changed.
Jan 14th, 2017, 08:29 PM
#49
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Thank you for the replies. There is much to consider and think about and believe me, we are not taking such a big purchase lightly. We're excited at the prospect, will keep you posted...
Jan 14th, 2017, 09:47 PM
#50
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Mor on the peculiarities of French taxes:
My mother gave me her house, with the right to use it as long as she wanted, in the 1980's. I paid the annual taxes. When I sold the house a few years ago, because I had owned it for more than 30 years, I had to pay no tax on its value in France (different story in the States).
My mother gave me her house, with the right to use it as long as she wanted, in the 1980's. I paid the annual taxes. When I sold the house a few years ago, because I had owned it for more than 30 years, I had to pay no tax on its value in France (different story in the States).
Jan 14th, 2017, 10:52 PM
#51
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When I sold my apartment (and decided that renting would be much more reasonable), since I'm a retired American, am not considered "un resident fiscal" and had bought the apartment at a much lower price than I sold it for, I either had to pay "plus valu" (capital gains tax) in both countries or drop the price - which is what I did to avoid all that. Thank you, FATCA.
Be sure to consult a good international tax attorney, as well as a good notaire before you purchase any property.
About property taxes - you can be assessed an enormous amount of money if you just construct a new shed in your backyard.
Be sure to consult a good international tax attorney, as well as a good notaire before you purchase any property.
About property taxes - you can be assessed an enormous amount of money if you just construct a new shed in your backyard.
Jan 14th, 2017, 11:25 PM
#52
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<b> No one has said France is going to leave the EU (at least not in the thread).</b>
But of course that is a threat that has been suggested in the press. But that leader of said political party could win the election for president remains to be seen.
But of course that is a threat that has been suggested in the press. But that leader of said political party could win the election for president remains to be seen.
Jan 15th, 2017, 01:00 AM
#53
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"No one has said France is going to leave the EU (at least not in the thread)"
There are two ostensibly credible threats made in this thread about Europolitics. Neither relate to France's EU membership:
- that there's a risk of house price collapse in expat-friendly parts of France when UK expats "lose their status as EU citizens". This isn't particularly likely: almost all sides in the forthcoming UK exit negotiations seem to have agreed not to raise the issue of mass expulsions - and for many long-standing European expats, in both the UK and in the rest of the EU, there's a serious legal case that current laws give them certainty of residence anyway.
- that house prices (in dollars) will fall if France leaves the Eurozone. It is the policy of Marine le Pen to create a parallel currency which will, in effect, be devalued. This policy is almost certainly impractical, and there's no EU provision for individual states to leave the Euro anyweay. But there's no question about the intent: The Front National feels, if anything, more strongly that the currency in France is overvalued than tat it wants tocut immigration.
The facts are, though, that there's a real risk property prices, converted into dollars, will fall. Like everything to do with currency, the important question isn't what will happen, but when.
Given the poster's timings, it's perfectly possible prices will collapse this year. Given the fundamental health of the French economy - and the country's population growth - it's also perfectly possible prices will later rebound.
Acquiring foreign property creates quite different risks (upside AND downside) from buying at home. The poster needs to take these into account - and decide, at the time of buying, whether the risk of currency fluctuations means potential loss, potential windfall gains, or is simply irrelevant because either way this isn't a significant financial investment but a lifestyle choice.
There are two ostensibly credible threats made in this thread about Europolitics. Neither relate to France's EU membership:
- that there's a risk of house price collapse in expat-friendly parts of France when UK expats "lose their status as EU citizens". This isn't particularly likely: almost all sides in the forthcoming UK exit negotiations seem to have agreed not to raise the issue of mass expulsions - and for many long-standing European expats, in both the UK and in the rest of the EU, there's a serious legal case that current laws give them certainty of residence anyway.
- that house prices (in dollars) will fall if France leaves the Eurozone. It is the policy of Marine le Pen to create a parallel currency which will, in effect, be devalued. This policy is almost certainly impractical, and there's no EU provision for individual states to leave the Euro anyweay. But there's no question about the intent: The Front National feels, if anything, more strongly that the currency in France is overvalued than tat it wants tocut immigration.
The facts are, though, that there's a real risk property prices, converted into dollars, will fall. Like everything to do with currency, the important question isn't what will happen, but when.
Given the poster's timings, it's perfectly possible prices will collapse this year. Given the fundamental health of the French economy - and the country's population growth - it's also perfectly possible prices will later rebound.
Acquiring foreign property creates quite different risks (upside AND downside) from buying at home. The poster needs to take these into account - and decide, at the time of buying, whether the risk of currency fluctuations means potential loss, potential windfall gains, or is simply irrelevant because either way this isn't a significant financial investment but a lifestyle choice.
Jan 15th, 2017, 02:52 AM
#54
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Point about banks; If you don't already have a bank account in France and a relationship with a banker who knows you, it is far from easy to open a bank account in France as an American. My banker here in Belgium admitted recently that they will rather not take on new clients from the US. This is due to the paperwork demanded by the American authorities.
Even we, as European citizens who have nothing to do with the US, have to sign forms for the US authorities when opening an account with a local bank here.
Even we, as European citizens who have nothing to do with the US, have to sign forms for the US authorities when opening an account with a local bank here.
Jan 15th, 2017, 05:31 AM
#55
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The OP mentioned not wanting to live near tourist attractions, etc. This will severely limit access to hospitals, clinics, banks, supermarkets and other commerce.
It will also definitely not be a valid selling point if you decide to sell your property in the future.
It does sound ideal to be living away from everything, but it can also be a royal pain if you need to get in your car or take the bus constantly.
It will also definitely not be a valid selling point if you decide to sell your property in the future.
It does sound ideal to be living away from everything, but it can also be a royal pain if you need to get in your car or take the bus constantly.
Jan 15th, 2017, 07:28 AM
#56
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<i> This will severely limit access to hospitals, clinics, banks, supermarkets and other commerce.</i>
These services were not created for tourists exclusively. On the contrary, supermarkets are oriented toward the local population, with perhaps shelves of interest to tourists and summer residents stocked at the beginning of the tourist season. Of course, if one looks for an isolated house, it can be several kilometers from these services.
These services were not created for tourists exclusively. On the contrary, supermarkets are oriented toward the local population, with perhaps shelves of interest to tourists and summer residents stocked at the beginning of the tourist season. Of course, if one looks for an isolated house, it can be several kilometers from these services.
Jan 15th, 2017, 08:00 AM
#57
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<i>Sorry to burst your bubble but there is no such thing as EU citizenship! Have you both got rights to reside in France for longer than 90dyas?
</i>
I think it's true that any EU citizen can live indefinitely in any other EU country. The other spouse would have to get a "family reunification" visa. I've never heard of this being denied, but I suppose that there could be circumstances that would prevent it.
</i>
I think it's true that any EU citizen can live indefinitely in any other EU country. The other spouse would have to get a "family reunification" visa. I've never heard of this being denied, but I suppose that there could be circumstances that would prevent it.
Jan 15th, 2017, 08:11 AM
#58
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Michael - I wasn't referring to people who want to live as tourists during the Summer, but residents who intend to spend most of the year on their property.
Especially the part about diminishing hospital services, which will continue as long as the budgetary constraints do.
Especially the part about diminishing hospital services, which will continue as long as the budgetary constraints do.
Jan 15th, 2017, 08:56 AM
#59
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EU citizens can live in another EU country but still have to register. I don't know what the rules are for France. You'll be taxed in France if you live there a number of days out of the year. The 'family reunification' visa is by no means automatic. If you're wealthy and speak the language it's probably not a problem.
Jan 15th, 2017, 09:20 AM
#60
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fuzzbucket,
I had a house in the Périgord vert, 4 km. from Excideuil, in a hamlet that had absolutely no services. But Excideuil had 2 doctors, a supermarket, two banks, a hardware store, a dry cleaner, several boulangeries, etc. These services are not likely to disappear. Whatever is added or cut back in terms of social and commercial services, it is not the summer tourism that will change the equation. And for years, the hospital services for that area were either Périgeux or Saint-Yrieix. Some areas might be more remote than that (the Auvergne, for example), but that was always the case and not a recent development.
I had a house in the Périgord vert, 4 km. from Excideuil, in a hamlet that had absolutely no services. But Excideuil had 2 doctors, a supermarket, two banks, a hardware store, a dry cleaner, several boulangeries, etc. These services are not likely to disappear. Whatever is added or cut back in terms of social and commercial services, it is not the summer tourism that will change the equation. And for years, the hospital services for that area were either Périgeux or Saint-Yrieix. Some areas might be more remote than that (the Auvergne, for example), but that was always the case and not a recent development.
