Holland...nagging trivia question
Aug 25th, 2010, 06:51 AM
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Holland...nagging trivia question
OK, here is something that intrigued me for a while.
Is it called Holland or the Netherlands? What's the difference? In French, they also lump it into 'Les Pays Bas? Lowland countries? What about Benelux?
And why are its citizens called the Dutch, instead of the..Hollandaise
?
When looking at some family tree info, finally figured out the Pensylvania Dutch was really Pennsylvania Deutsche, so German not Dutch.
Is it called Holland or the Netherlands? What's the difference? In French, they also lump it into 'Les Pays Bas? Lowland countries? What about Benelux?
And why are its citizens called the Dutch, instead of the..Hollandaise
? When looking at some family tree info, finally figured out the Pensylvania Dutch was really Pennsylvania Deutsche, so German not Dutch.
Aug 25th, 2010, 07:13 AM
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In Dutch, the country and the language are Nederland(s).
Holland is one of the provinces, but at a key point in their history the dominant one, and easier for foreigners to say than "The United Provinces of the Netherlands" (especially since they weren't, all the time) - and quite often you will find the Dutch using "Holland" in the same sense (especially for the national football team?).
Hence also "Low Countries" and "Pays Bas", since at different times, they did and didn't include what is now Belgium (known in my inherited Victorian history books as the Cockpit of Europe).
As for why we say Dutch, my guess is that for most English speakers until well on into the 18th/19th centuries, the people they met from what is now the Netherlands and what is now Germany would have seemed very similar.
Holland is one of the provinces, but at a key point in their history the dominant one, and easier for foreigners to say than "The United Provinces of the Netherlands" (especially since they weren't, all the time) - and quite often you will find the Dutch using "Holland" in the same sense (especially for the national football team?).
Hence also "Low Countries" and "Pays Bas", since at different times, they did and didn't include what is now Belgium (known in my inherited Victorian history books as the Cockpit of Europe).
As for why we say Dutch, my guess is that for most English speakers until well on into the 18th/19th centuries, the people they met from what is now the Netherlands and what is now Germany would have seemed very similar.
Aug 25th, 2010, 07:22 AM
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Most correctly it is the Netherlands. North and South Holland are two provinces of the The Netherlands. They used to be a separate area under the Count of Holland, and came to dominate the other provinces - hence the use of the name Holland. It is an acceptable, but unofficial name for the country. Not all Dutch are Hollanders though, and not all Dutch appreciate the use of Holland.
The Dutch call their sports teams Holland not Nederland, as in Hup Holland Hup.
The Netherlands means the low countries - once Belgium and Luxembourg were also part of the Netherlands. Belgium became separate in 1830, and Luxembourg in 1890, when there was no male heir to take on the title of Grand Duke.
The language in Dutch in Nederlands, and in English is more correctly Netherlandish. Dutch has same roots as Deutsch - at one time English speakers referred to all Germanic languages as Dutch - German as High Dutch and Dutch as Low Dutch.
The Belgians also speak Dutch, but call it Flemish to distinguish themselves from the Dutch. there are differences in the two languages however which have developed over time, and both countries tend to subtitle some TV programmes from the other.
Dutch is sometime also called Hollands in both Belgium and the Netherlands.
The Dutch call their sports teams Holland not Nederland, as in Hup Holland Hup.
The Netherlands means the low countries - once Belgium and Luxembourg were also part of the Netherlands. Belgium became separate in 1830, and Luxembourg in 1890, when there was no male heir to take on the title of Grand Duke.
The language in Dutch in Nederlands, and in English is more correctly Netherlandish. Dutch has same roots as Deutsch - at one time English speakers referred to all Germanic languages as Dutch - German as High Dutch and Dutch as Low Dutch.
The Belgians also speak Dutch, but call it Flemish to distinguish themselves from the Dutch. there are differences in the two languages however which have developed over time, and both countries tend to subtitle some TV programmes from the other.
Dutch is sometime also called Hollands in both Belgium and the Netherlands.
Aug 25th, 2010, 07:38 AM
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One of my daughter's friends is from Belgium with family roots in the Netherlands (several provinces), so she "schooled" us recently.
The name "Dutch" comes from the language that used to be spoken there (Middle Dutch) called "Diets".
"Holland" itself now consists of TWO provinces of the TWELVE provinces that make up the Netherlands, and Holland seems to have always one of the biggest provinces in all the various province configurations. But the "Netherlands" moniker has been around forever, too.
The Netherlands, a general group of provinces, had been in a state of geographic flux for centuries, and for a long time, they had to fight tooth and nail to get out from under the rule of Spain. Their "Declaration of Independence", the Act of Abjuration, was written in 1581, but then they had to fight until 1648 to get Spain to believe it. Then the provinces of Holland, Zeeland, Utrecht, Overijssel, and Gelre formed a confederation known as the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands. The southern Netherland provinces more or less just "hung" with them.
When Napoleon was conquering everything in 1806, he decided that the name of then leading Netherlands province, Holland, should used for the whole country and he gave the rule of "The Kingdom of Holland" to brother Louis. The kingdom covered the area of the present day Netherlands, with the exception of Limburg and parts of Zeeland, which were French territory. Napoleon had the surprise of his life when brother Louis decided to rule the country as though he himself were Dutch, not Nappie's brother. By 1810, Nappie just annexed everything onto France. And then in 1813, Nappie was out the door.
In 1815, Congress of Vienna (which our European friends know was a sort of aristocratic version of the European Union) decided to recognize The Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg as the "United Kingdom of the Netherlands", which didn't make the people in Belgium and Luxembourg all that happy. By 1830 Belgium was out of there; by 1890, Luxembourg had gone. But you can see why "Benelux" makes a geographic and historical sense as a moniker.
I am just assuming the Le Pays Bas term could be used as we do in the United States for some of our low-lying areas/states, and of course, we play fast and loose with the terminology. We have a whole recognized cuisine built on "Low Country Cooking" (Carolinas), yet the cuisines of two other sea level areas, New Orleans and Florida Everglades regions, are rather different.
21% of the Netherlands, I believe, is below sea level.
The name "Dutch" comes from the language that used to be spoken there (Middle Dutch) called "Diets".
"Holland" itself now consists of TWO provinces of the TWELVE provinces that make up the Netherlands, and Holland seems to have always one of the biggest provinces in all the various province configurations. But the "Netherlands" moniker has been around forever, too.
The Netherlands, a general group of provinces, had been in a state of geographic flux for centuries, and for a long time, they had to fight tooth and nail to get out from under the rule of Spain. Their "Declaration of Independence", the Act of Abjuration, was written in 1581, but then they had to fight until 1648 to get Spain to believe it. Then the provinces of Holland, Zeeland, Utrecht, Overijssel, and Gelre formed a confederation known as the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands. The southern Netherland provinces more or less just "hung" with them.
When Napoleon was conquering everything in 1806, he decided that the name of then leading Netherlands province, Holland, should used for the whole country and he gave the rule of "The Kingdom of Holland" to brother Louis. The kingdom covered the area of the present day Netherlands, with the exception of Limburg and parts of Zeeland, which were French territory. Napoleon had the surprise of his life when brother Louis decided to rule the country as though he himself were Dutch, not Nappie's brother. By 1810, Nappie just annexed everything onto France. And then in 1813, Nappie was out the door.
In 1815, Congress of Vienna (which our European friends know was a sort of aristocratic version of the European Union) decided to recognize The Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg as the "United Kingdom of the Netherlands", which didn't make the people in Belgium and Luxembourg all that happy. By 1830 Belgium was out of there; by 1890, Luxembourg had gone. But you can see why "Benelux" makes a geographic and historical sense as a moniker.
I am just assuming the Le Pays Bas term could be used as we do in the United States for some of our low-lying areas/states, and of course, we play fast and loose with the terminology. We have a whole recognized cuisine built on "Low Country Cooking" (Carolinas), yet the cuisines of two other sea level areas, New Orleans and Florida Everglades regions, are rather different.
21% of the Netherlands, I believe, is below sea level.
Aug 25th, 2010, 07:54 AM
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"Les Pays Bas" is now simply the French for The Netherlands. The adjective from it is neerlandais (with an acute over the first "e"). But the English "The Low Countries" is much vaguer.
It's been used for centuries to mean the bit of territory opposite East Anglia that's prone to flooding. It was never used to describe Luxembourg or the Ardennes, but it's been used since the middle ages to include places like Antwerp and Bruges: anywhere north of Calais we sold our wool in (and I'll bet somewhere in the accounts of a medieval wool merchant, even Calais has been described as in the Low Countries).
Whereas Pays Bas is now the standard French for a tightly-defined political entity, The Low Countries can and could refer to practically wherever the speaker wanted.
It's been used for centuries to mean the bit of territory opposite East Anglia that's prone to flooding. It was never used to describe Luxembourg or the Ardennes, but it's been used since the middle ages to include places like Antwerp and Bruges: anywhere north of Calais we sold our wool in (and I'll bet somewhere in the accounts of a medieval wool merchant, even Calais has been described as in the Low Countries).
Whereas Pays Bas is now the standard French for a tightly-defined political entity, The Low Countries can and could refer to practically wherever the speaker wanted.
Aug 25th, 2010, 07:56 AM
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Benelux comes from the Benelux customs union of 1944. It was custom made for that Union, but is now used as shorthand for the three countries.
Bleu, not quite so catchy - the Belgium Luxembourg Economic Union pre-dates it, formed 1921.
Bleu, not quite so catchy - the Belgium Luxembourg Economic Union pre-dates it, formed 1921.
Aug 25th, 2010, 08:04 AM
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""Les Pays Bas" is now simply the French for The Netherlands. The adjective from it is neerlandais"
...is of course something every European of a certain age knows without even thinking.
For 50 years, until English took over completely, our entries turned to gibberish and the voting got totally gerrymandered, we all watched this dialogue once a year:
Speakerine. "Et maintenant, les Pays Bas"
Pretty Dutch girl "Bonsoir Paris. Ici Hilversum. Voici les resultats du jury neerlandais. Grande Bretagne: douze points"
...is of course something every European of a certain age knows without even thinking.
For 50 years, until English took over completely, our entries turned to gibberish and the voting got totally gerrymandered, we all watched this dialogue once a year:
Speakerine. "Et maintenant, les Pays Bas"
Pretty Dutch girl "Bonsoir Paris. Ici Hilversum. Voici les resultats du jury neerlandais. Grande Bretagne: douze points"
Aug 29th, 2010, 03:29 PM
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Yep, LoveItaly, very astute...
New Zealand comes from the Dutch cartographers' naming it "Nova Zeelandia" after the Netherlands province. However, the first Dutch name for the area was "Staten Landt", meaning "Land of the (Dutch) States-General". If you are thinking of Staten Island in NYC, you're pretty on target.
"Staaten Eylandt" was named in honor of the Dutch parliament, the Staten-Generaal.
New Zealand comes from the Dutch cartographers' naming it "Nova Zeelandia" after the Netherlands province. However, the first Dutch name for the area was "Staten Landt", meaning "Land of the (Dutch) States-General". If you are thinking of Staten Island in NYC, you're pretty on target.
"Staaten Eylandt" was named in honor of the Dutch parliament, the Staten-Generaal.
Aug 29th, 2010, 05:13 PM
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Thank you, AlessandraZoe. My father was born in New Zeeland and until this thread I had no idea that there was a Zeeland in the Netherlands and consequently that is how New Zeeland acquired its name. The things you learn on Fodor's!
Aug 30th, 2010, 12:25 AM
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Regarding the Duth soccer team; a popular name is also 'Oranje' (orange). Named after the royal family name (Van Oranje). Hence all the soccer supporters in orange attire!
Dutch and Flemish are in essence the same language (with some minor differences, I guess the same as British and American English). People form the Netherlands and Flemish Belgium understand each other perfectly. But for one reason are another, tv stations in both countries started subtitling each other programs. Not necessary IMHO.
Dutch and Flemish are in essence the same language (with some minor differences, I guess the same as British and American English). People form the Netherlands and Flemish Belgium understand each other perfectly. But for one reason are another, tv stations in both countries started subtitling each other programs. Not necessary IMHO.
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