help with german phrases
Aug 11th, 2005 | 03:16 AM
#5
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Well, Valtor's suggestion can't be more polite if it's incorrect German, which it is.
The German reflexive verb "sich entschuldigen" (to apologize) takes the accusative case pronoun, which is rendered in German by "mich" NOT dative case "mir"
Thus in German "excuse me please" is "entschuldigen Sie mich, bitte"
"Entschuldigung" or "Verzeihung" (pardon) probably convey better for your second scenario.
The German reflexive verb "sich entschuldigen" (to apologize) takes the accusative case pronoun, which is rendered in German by "mich" NOT dative case "mir"
Thus in German "excuse me please" is "entschuldigen Sie mich, bitte"
"Entschuldigung" or "Verzeihung" (pardon) probably convey better for your second scenario.
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Aug 11th, 2005 | 05:00 AM
#9
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On the one hand, I agree that it is not so difficult to learn to pronounce Entschuldigung nor Verzeihung easily and smoothly, I think there are some "Tarzan-speak" alternatives. If you want two syllables, "verzeihst" would b understood, even if not entirely polite with strangers
(fehr-tzeist)
...but Germany is enough of a pan-European country, that it will generally be understood if you say "Scusi" or parDON" (make it rhyme with carBONE) or even "Excuse me".
It's not like they have never heard a Spaniard, a Frenchman, an Italian, or a Canadian who reverted to their native language,feeling stressed, wanting to get off a bus!
And "bitte" would likewise be understood (please) when asking if you can pass someone.
Verzeihen does seem slightly better than Entschuldigen for a "bump into"... as it is usually translated as "forgive".
Best wishes,
Rex
(fehr-tzeist)
...but Germany is enough of a pan-European country, that it will generally be understood if you say "Scusi" or parDON" (make it rhyme with carBONE) or even "Excuse me".
It's not like they have never heard a Spaniard, a Frenchman, an Italian, or a Canadian who reverted to their native language,feeling stressed, wanting to get off a bus!
And "bitte" would likewise be understood (please) when asking if you can pass someone.
Verzeihen does seem slightly better than Entschuldigen for a "bump into"... as it is usually translated as "forgive".
Best wishes,
Rex
Aug 11th, 2005 | 08:08 AM
#11
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Being a German I can tell you that we do understand "Excuse me, please" and "Sorry" - and this probably better than if you try to speak German. The word "Sorry" is often used by younger Germans themselves.
Aug 11th, 2005 | 04:49 PM
#14
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Rex has got it all wrong again...
1. 'Pardon' is pronounced as in French, as another poster pointed out, and not as in Italian.
2. You can certainly not say 'verzeihst' - for one thing this is not the imperative form of the verb, and for another it is, as he well knows, quite socially inept to address strangers in the 'du'-form.
Not so long ago you could be taken to court for this offence, and fined if found guilty. I recall an occasion on a wintry evening in Seefeld some 20 years ago when a very well-dressed gentleman trailing a very well-dressed dog on a leash crossed the road to the pavement just ahead of me and my wife, allowing said dog to wrap his lead around the back of my wife's legs causing her to stumble badly. My immediate reaction was to fire off a volley of unkind epithets in the direction of said gentleman, all couched in the 'du'-form. At this, he made unmistakeable signs that he intended to prosecute, but, given my subsequent more menacing behaviour, thought better of it.
3. 'Bitte' is NOT a request on your own behalf, but an invitation to someone else to proceed ahead of you. The right way to 'butt in' is to say 'darf ich?'
4. 'Verzeihung' and 'Entschuldigung' are pretty much interchangeable, whether used by way of anticipating a 'bump into' or apologizing for one, and as a way of rendering the English 'forgive'.
Otherwise OK, Rex.
Harzer
1. 'Pardon' is pronounced as in French, as another poster pointed out, and not as in Italian.
2. You can certainly not say 'verzeihst' - for one thing this is not the imperative form of the verb, and for another it is, as he well knows, quite socially inept to address strangers in the 'du'-form.
Not so long ago you could be taken to court for this offence, and fined if found guilty. I recall an occasion on a wintry evening in Seefeld some 20 years ago when a very well-dressed gentleman trailing a very well-dressed dog on a leash crossed the road to the pavement just ahead of me and my wife, allowing said dog to wrap his lead around the back of my wife's legs causing her to stumble badly. My immediate reaction was to fire off a volley of unkind epithets in the direction of said gentleman, all couched in the 'du'-form. At this, he made unmistakeable signs that he intended to prosecute, but, given my subsequent more menacing behaviour, thought better of it.
3. 'Bitte' is NOT a request on your own behalf, but an invitation to someone else to proceed ahead of you. The right way to 'butt in' is to say 'darf ich?'
4. 'Verzeihung' and 'Entschuldigung' are pretty much interchangeable, whether used by way of anticipating a 'bump into' or apologizing for one, and as a way of rendering the English 'forgive'.
Otherwise OK, Rex.
Harzer
Aug 11th, 2005 | 05:56 PM
#15
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I'm sorry that my suggestions sounded more authoritative than I intended them. It's true - - I do not have the familiarity with idiomatic German that comes from residing in Germany, even for as little as a few weeks. I took 10 hours of 100 level German as a freshman, then 4 hours of 200 level, and skipped on to 3 hours of a 300 level literature course. And I have tried to keep it up through the ten times I have been to Germany in the past 19 years. Not enough to stay fresh.
Let me prioritize:
1. ChevyC <i>can</i> and <i>should learn to pronounce, with comfort and fluidity <i>Entschuldigen Sie mich, bitte</i>.
2. To dispaly good manners, don't underestimate the importance of using the formal second person "Sie" (the verb will be the same as the plural second person, and in many cases, the same as third person plural also, and maybe even first person plural also) - - Sind Sie? or Haben Sie? I said that using a "du" form would not be entirely polite, and it is indeed, not polite - - yet at the same time, it seems to me that in as little as one night's stay at a gasthaus, I have been addressed with Bist du? or Hast du? and so, the "du" forms ought to be learned, and I don't shy away from using them in return. My point was that a two syllable alternative does exist. I must say that I had not thought (was not aware) that "Sorry" has become a "steal word". Sounds like a good "getaway with" universal expression.
3. It's difficult to represent - - with (American) English "pseudo-phonetics - - the "nasal" o(n) of (French) <i>pardon</i>... but "rhymes with carBONE" is a perfectly legitimate way to explain the pronunciation of the <i>Spanish</i> word "pardon". But I'll take it as gospel (from Ingo) that "Excuse me please" will have high likelihood of being understood.
4. I could have been using this wrong for a long time, but I use "Bitte" to get someone'a attention, just as I would end "Entschuldigen Sie mich" with "bitte". And so, bitte, could be said with a tone of voice as in "please, may I have your attention? - - I am trying to come through".
The more I say, the more defensive and argumentative I sound, no doubt.
</i>
Let me prioritize:
1. ChevyC <i>can</i> and <i>should learn to pronounce, with comfort and fluidity <i>Entschuldigen Sie mich, bitte</i>.
2. To dispaly good manners, don't underestimate the importance of using the formal second person "Sie" (the verb will be the same as the plural second person, and in many cases, the same as third person plural also, and maybe even first person plural also) - - Sind Sie? or Haben Sie? I said that using a "du" form would not be entirely polite, and it is indeed, not polite - - yet at the same time, it seems to me that in as little as one night's stay at a gasthaus, I have been addressed with Bist du? or Hast du? and so, the "du" forms ought to be learned, and I don't shy away from using them in return. My point was that a two syllable alternative does exist. I must say that I had not thought (was not aware) that "Sorry" has become a "steal word". Sounds like a good "getaway with" universal expression.
3. It's difficult to represent - - with (American) English "pseudo-phonetics - - the "nasal" o(n) of (French) <i>pardon</i>... but "rhymes with carBONE" is a perfectly legitimate way to explain the pronunciation of the <i>Spanish</i> word "pardon". But I'll take it as gospel (from Ingo) that "Excuse me please" will have high likelihood of being understood.
4. I could have been using this wrong for a long time, but I use "Bitte" to get someone'a attention, just as I would end "Entschuldigen Sie mich" with "bitte". And so, bitte, could be said with a tone of voice as in "please, may I have your attention? - - I am trying to come through".
The more I say, the more defensive and argumentative I sound, no doubt.
</i>
Aug 11th, 2005 | 09:54 PM
#16
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I don't think I am a rude person. This said, I cannot remember the last time I used the phrase "Entschuldigen Sie mich, bitte".
If I intend to be really formal I would indeed use the term "Entschuldigen Sie, bitte" or "Verzeihung, bitte".
In everyday use, though "Tschuldigung" or "Sorry" are the terms to use.
The term "verzeihst" is certainly not applicable - it would have to be "Verzeihst Du mir bitte ?", which sounds like a dialogue of lovers and would cause some startled stares if used on strangers.
If I intend to be really formal I would indeed use the term "Entschuldigen Sie, bitte" or "Verzeihung, bitte".
In everyday use, though "Tschuldigung" or "Sorry" are the terms to use.
The term "verzeihst" is certainly not applicable - it would have to be "Verzeihst Du mir bitte ?", which sounds like a dialogue of lovers and would cause some startled stares if used on strangers.
Aug 12th, 2005 | 06:03 AM
#17
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ChevyC-
After wading through all the noise here on this post by Rex, (who,(sigh) STILL doesn't have it right-Rex, please, GO READ YOUR GERMAN BOOKS-the "Sie" form is NOT the same as "second person plural"- it is the THIRD PERSON PLURAL form of the verb which is used for the formal "Sie" forms!)
Second person plural is "ihr habt," "ihr seid" =you all have, you all are, collectively-as opposed to the formal "you" form in German, i.e., Sie haben, Sie sind=You have, You are.
and learning that yes, of course, Germans know and occasionally use English words like "sorry" when being bumped, or abbreviate/mumble the word "Entschuldigung" (but you don't want to do that do you? There's plenty of ways to fracture a language-wait until you're really familiar with it to start that sort of thing-)
and going back to your original question-if you use "Entschuldigung," or "Entschuldigung Sie mich, bitte" (and yes, I've had this more formal expression said to me many times by Germans) and "Verzeihung" when bumping into someone-you'll be speaking correct German.
And I speak as the former graduate fellowship student in German literature that I once was (was, until I got bored-university academic life was not for me).
After wading through all the noise here on this post by Rex, (who,(sigh) STILL doesn't have it right-Rex, please, GO READ YOUR GERMAN BOOKS-the "Sie" form is NOT the same as "second person plural"- it is the THIRD PERSON PLURAL form of the verb which is used for the formal "Sie" forms!)
Second person plural is "ihr habt," "ihr seid" =you all have, you all are, collectively-as opposed to the formal "you" form in German, i.e., Sie haben, Sie sind=You have, You are.
and learning that yes, of course, Germans know and occasionally use English words like "sorry" when being bumped, or abbreviate/mumble the word "Entschuldigung" (but you don't want to do that do you? There's plenty of ways to fracture a language-wait until you're really familiar with it to start that sort of thing-)
and going back to your original question-if you use "Entschuldigung," or "Entschuldigung Sie mich, bitte" (and yes, I've had this more formal expression said to me many times by Germans) and "Verzeihung" when bumping into someone-you'll be speaking correct German.
And I speak as the former graduate fellowship student in German literature that I once was (was, until I got bored-university academic life was not for me).
Aug 12th, 2005 | 06:25 AM
#18
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Ich muß Ihre Entschuldigung bitten.
I have clearly futzed up "ihr" mit "Sie" (second person plural vs. second person formal). I apologize.
Can I at least offer this one final note of clarification on mich vs mir with entschuldigen and verzeihen? The correction of valtor's use of mir to mich (by the often venomous Spygirl) with sich entschuldigen was of course correct. But the use of mir with verzeihen is, to the contrary, correct, as is. Verzeihen does indeed take the dative case.
Just pointing out the difference to those who may be in the learning stages of their German, or like myself, in "the stumbling through rusty memories stage" (a time in life when saying less is often better than saying more; I too frequently forget this).
I have clearly futzed up "ihr" mit "Sie" (second person plural vs. second person formal). I apologize.
Can I at least offer this one final note of clarification on mich vs mir with entschuldigen and verzeihen? The correction of valtor's use of mir to mich (by the often venomous Spygirl) with sich entschuldigen was of course correct. But the use of mir with verzeihen is, to the contrary, correct, as is. Verzeihen does indeed take the dative case.
Just pointing out the difference to those who may be in the learning stages of their German, or like myself, in "the stumbling through rusty memories stage" (a time in life when saying less is often better than saying more; I too frequently forget this).
Aug 12th, 2005 | 07:06 AM
#19
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I've always understood "bitte schön" would be acceptable if you want to draw someone's attention to the fact that you're behind them and want to get past; but equally, it's a way of saying 'by all means/ don't mention it' when you're acknowledging someone else's thanks or excuses. There was a tale of a traveller in (I think) Austria who woke one morning to the sound of a whispering sound outside, only to see a line of builders passing bricks from one to the other, with a formal "Danke schön/ Bitte schön" accompanying each brick along the line (somehow I think that might be from Mark Twain..?)
Aug 12th, 2005 | 09:20 AM
#20
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I do know a little German, since I'm a native German born and living in Munich/Germany as hsv and harzer are. The ideal high German tought in language school and the German you use everyday is quite different.
"Bitte(schön)" would be o.k. if you offer somthing to another person, like you seat in the bus, a cup of coffee (or a brick). If you want to get past sombody, Verzeihung, (En)tschuldigung, Darf ich, would be o.k.
"Ich muß Ihre Entschuldigung bitten." is incorrect It would be correct to say "Ich muß um Ihre Entschuldigung bitten." But nobody would talk like this unless you're at a diner party.. so simply say "Entschundigen Sie".
"Bitte(schön)" would be o.k. if you offer somthing to another person, like you seat in the bus, a cup of coffee (or a brick). If you want to get past sombody, Verzeihung, (En)tschuldigung, Darf ich, would be o.k.
"Ich muß Ihre Entschuldigung bitten." is incorrect It would be correct to say "Ich muß um Ihre Entschuldigung bitten." But nobody would talk like this unless you're at a diner party.. so simply say "Entschundigen Sie".
