Katiebug

My husband and I are going to England and France in May/June of '04. We have already purchased our tickets, flying into Heathrow on 5/25 and out of DeGaulle on 6/12. That leaves us about 18 days to play.

Originally, I put in quite a bit of time reasearching, reading books and reading postings about France, because we don't know France at all, I've had a (tiny) taste of England (20 yrs. ago) so I thought I knew what we'd like to do, and I felt that it would take us longer to figure out how we could narrow down our interests in France. Now that we've purchased our tickets and I've moved on to consider what we'd like to do in England, I'm finding accommodations in London much more costly than I expected them to be, which limits time time spent there. I've gone through stages of figuring we'd rent a car outside of London and drive through the countryside, to ok, what can we get to via train. These stages have been largely based on extreme opinions and adivse either against or encouraging driving in England, by people on this forum. Some literally said I would be committing suicide, while others said "go for it, it's an experience." We're all about "experiencing," but we don't want to be foolish either. All in all, I'm at a point of being totally confused, and even a tad discouraged.

Here are some specifics: We're 42 & have a decent energy level. Our budget (*not* including airfare) is about $8K - for everything. In France (the 2nd part of the trip), We'll be staying in Paris a few days, then moving on to Champagne & Burgundy (we're very much into wines). While in Paris, we will stay in nice, but simple accommodations, enjoy a few indulgences & "treats," as well as casual life & picnicing in cafés and parks, etc. We'd love to have the same type of balance in England, with a few "treats" as well as some simple comforts. We'd like to go to Windsor, Stonehenge, in addition to seeing the "biggies" of London. We've also considered the Magical Mystery Tour in Liverpool (my husband's a big Beatles fan), the Cottswolds (which I enjoyed when I went), Bath, and the southern coast. Spending time in London and Paris will give us our "city fix," and we're really not into the more commercial areas. We'd love to get a balance of maybe a castle (in addition to Windsor), a couple of cathedrals, a little shopping, a maze, PUBS!, relaxing, the coast, quaint towns & lots of romance & fun (as examples). I'm afraid, however, that due to the high accommodation costs in London, we're going to have to cut the England portion short & head to France (via the chunnel)early.

Would any of you kind souls like to step in to give me some encouragement & ideas on where to go, how to travel, where to stay, what to drink (oh, actually, I think we can figure that one!), etc.?

If I've forgotten something, just let me know. I'll keep an eye on this. Sorry for the length of the message - I just didn't want to neglect any necessary facts.

ira

Hi Katie,

By cutting your England portion short, you get to spend more time in Paris. I consider that a plus.

matthew

Windsor, Bath and Liverpool are all relatively easily accessible by train from London (getting further away in the order I have listed them.) Stonehenge I'm not too sure about (I've only driven there) but I would think that a train to the local town then a bus / tour would go there. The south coast is a big area - you would need to be more specific about a destination but most of the places you can get to by train (may have to change trains though.) Try http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/planmyjourney for times and ticket costs (note that a return ticket doesn't usually cost much more that a one way - no idea why.)
As for driving, a lot of US drivers seem to dislike or actively fear driving in the UK. I don't know why, have they never tried going anywhere in Texas or California!? The only place I wouldn't drive about in is London (cost and congestion reasons) but it would obviously make it much simpler to travel around and I would suggest you don't disregard it altogether, even if just for a day or two. The same is true for Paris which is renowned for the driving and parking displays (they say in London they park where they shouldn't whereas is Paris they park on top of people who have parked where they shouldn't.)

You say that you were having trouble getting a reasonable priced hotel in London - did you try the sites mentioned in a few of the posts on this site? Try searching for London Hotels on the Europe thread and there should be a few links for you to try (a couple are www.londonnights.com, www.laterooms.com, http://www.tripadvisor.com for reviews.)

Don't give up and get discouraged by it - there are a lot of very knowledgeable people on this site (albeit a bit nervous about driving and apparently obsessed with washcloth's!?) and there are numerous threads on the UK and Paris that will give you a good idea of where to look at going as well as making it all seem more real and achievable.
Remember, it's supposed to be fun!

dumas1870

Okay, I'll lay out a marker for discussion: Spend 7 nights in London and do daytrips to Hampton Court and Greenwich. Spend 7 nights in Paris and four nights in the Loire Valley. No car needed in London or Paris. Rent a car for the Loire.

ron

I guess I do not understand the London problem. With $8000 and 18 days, you have $400 per day, or $200 per person per day. Unless these are Canadian or Australian dollars, it seems like plenty. I spent 5 days in London in June and will spend another 3 nights later this month, and I am not spending nearly $200 per day. The following are my spending, per person, per day.

***/**** hotel (Thistle), bed and breakfast £38;
lunch (pub, café or picnic, sometimes none)£0 to £6;
dinner (pub, noodle place or mod. rest £10 to £20;
2 pints of beer £5;
travel card £4;

Adding this up and converting, this is max $120, leaving $80 for admissions, theatre, concerts, guided walks.

I suggest you plan for 3 or 4 nights in London and rent your car for a week, or if you do not want to drive, spend a few more days in London and use the train for a 3 night visit to York and a 2 night visit to Cardiff. I would not even start worrying about the London hotel until sometime in April.

elaine

Hi
there ARE some low-cost accommodations in London. For one popular place, look into the Morgan Hotel. Nothing but praise here, and at tripadvisor.com
Current rate (might be higher in the spring) is under 100 pounds for a double. And there are other places less than that.

From Frommers Sept 03--new London budget hotel listings. Each is scheduled to open in 2004.
Travel Inn Docklands, at the Royal Victoria stop of the Docklands Light Railway. www.travelinn.co.uk, 50-70 pounds per night.

Ibis London ExCel, Royal Victoria Dock, www.ibishotel.com 50-70 pounds.

Travelodge King?s Cross, Grays Inn Rd, www.travelodge.co.uk about 80 pounds per night.

Some people adapt well to the driving, some don't. If you stay in London and daytrip, look into advance purchase (not before you leave home) of some train tickets which will offer you favorable rates. The train websites should explain the various ticket options.

You can do one or more of the daytrips mentioned above (Liverpool is not a daytrip, it's an overnighter at least.) Warwick Castle is another popular venue.
In almost every case, it is less expensive to take trains or buses on your own rather than to pay for organized tours. Renting the car may be more or less expensive than fares, but then there's the parking problem, not just in London but even in places like Bath.

For Stonehenge: check this for current accuracy, but you can take the train from Waterloo Station to Salisbury (trip takes about 90 minutes) and then take a bus (runs hourly) outside the train station (buy tickets inside the train station). The bus runs at regular intervals, all day long, so you can catch one back to the Salisbury station. Also if you have time, Salisbury Cathedral is only about a 10 minute walk from the station.

Katiebug

Matthew - Thanks for your response. I had to laugh about the washcloths. Some really do have theirs in a twist, don't they?!

My original plan was to base in London & take day trips to several spots (Windsor, Stonehenge, Bath, etc.), but now that I see the hotel rates, I'd rather spend more on something with more character outside of the city, rather than a room in London, described as being able to "lay on the bed & touch all four walls." So, I figured if I split it up a little, we could have the convenience of the location in the city for 3ish nights, while we're enjoying London, then move on out to another location & check out other nearby areas.

Re: "the southern coast," I was thinking maybe the Kent/Canterbury/Dover area, maybe? Again, I'm hearing anthing from how "tacky, Disneyland like and touristy" some of these spots are, to how beautiful they are and how they are "don't miss it" spots. I know a lot depends on time of year, what you like, etc., but such extremes of opinions make it a bit difficult.

When it comes to driving... well, we live in N. California. I'm from the Silicon Valley / San Francisco area, but we now live in the Gold Country (small towns). We've driven in SF, as well as Boston (now THAT was an experience!), but I don't know how that compares, and of course, we were not driving on "the wrong side of the road." (Thankfully...that might cause problems in the U.S.)

I have, by the way, tried all of the web sites you mentioned, and more. I'm even considering priceline.com. I guess I just had visions of something modest, in a more reasonable range. In SF, we often stay in a pretty tiny, attractive European style hotel, in a great location, clean, w/ a *tiny* bathroom, for about $89 per night, including continental b-fast (and there's a good restaurant downstairs). I thought I could find something comparible, but I suppose not (from what I've seen).

dumas1870: Tell me what it is you like about Hampton Court and Greenwich? I'd love to hear more.

Ron: Thanks for your thoughts & reflections. Cardiff looks like a possibility. What do you like about it? I'll look @ other threads.

I know we *can* easily do it on the budget you mentioned. However, as I mentioned, we do like "treats" (ie: an extra special dinner somewhere, an really nice bottle of wine, staying over a couple of nights in a special spot), so I'd rather not spend time in London, taking trips outside of the city, then have to shy away from something we really might want to experience. Not that I'm against a modest spot, I just don't see the point in spending the extra $$ when we're traveling *outside* of the area we're staying in. It's a balancing act, and we all have our priorities. We want to see England as well as "do" England.

Too bad we're not all independantly wealthy, eh?

Gavin

Here are my 2 cents on the driving on the other side thing. Many adapt just fine but some don't. My suggestion is don't be too ambitious with what you do with a car in terms of distance covered per day and number of days with the car. That way if it does not work for you your loss is limited...unless you get killed. Seriously my experience is that the driving standards in England are very high. If you find you are OK with the driving then you know that for the next trip.

Degas

I think you are getting too hung up on the cost and small size of a hotel room in London. For most people its just a place to send a few hours sleeping and taking a shower.

Don't let a few whines on this forum cause you to flee to the countryside and miss so much of the wonderful things that London has to offer. Many things in london are free or cost very little. Base in London and do some daytrips. I also like Hampton Court and Greenwich for ease of access and loads of history. Kew Gardens is also nice.

Katiebug

Gavin & Degas - thank you for the encouragement.

Anyone else have any input/ideas?

Trevor

Cardiff is a very nice, modern Capital City. It is a small, compact city with pleanty of things to do. There's museams, shops, restaurants, bars etc, and not forgetting the world class Millennium Stadium and Cardiff Castle.

Pratically all the main hotel chains have at least one hotel in the city - such as Hilton, Marriott etc, all well located in the city centre. I'd suggest that you'd spend at least 2 days in the city, you could probably find plenty to do in this time, and still not feel rushed.

The Museam of Welsh Life is somewhere where l'd recommend you go - it's free and is Europes biggest open air museam. Very interesting and hands on. The National Museam and Gallery of Wales is also free, and again very interesting.

If you would like more information on Cardiff, then just post a reply to this message, or visit www.cardiff.gov.uk - Cardiff Council website, which gives a fairly good insight into the city.

letstalk

You have gotten a lot of good advice. Having just returned from two weeks in London and Paris, I'll add mine. I took my adult daughter for her first trip to Europe and I wanted her to see the cities and some of the countryside. For accomodations: I highly recommend Citadines Apart'otel St Germain in Paris. We rented a one bedroom apartment and ate breakfasts in. We filled the frig with cheese, snacks, and wine! This establishment is run like a hotel with an English speaking front desk staff, all-day coffee making in the lobby, and it faces the Seine on the left bank. Citadines is walking distance to the Louvre, the d'Orsay, Notre Dame, Latin Quarter for starters. Two metros and the RER line for Versaillles are a couple of blocks away. Stops for the BatOBus, an on-and-off boat bus, a double decker on-and-off bus and a charter tour company are within three blocks. There are dozens of good moderately priced restaurants within 5-10 minute walk. The apartment is modern and has no "Parisian" charm but the location couldn't be better (this was my 10th trip to Paris). My husband and I have also used Drawbridge to Europe for apartment rentals. Having stayed in hotels before, we now prefer apartments. Paris is a very walkable city with the major sights fairly close. Our most memorable day was a SegWay tour of Paris- it was a blast!!! http://www.parissegwaytours.com/Day.htm
For London, my daughter and I stayed in South Kensington at Harrington Hall, a 4* hotel that we booked through alpha-beds.com for $110 a night. (That was an exceptionally good price.) We checked out each hotel that we considered through Trip Advisor and tossed out many ideas before settling on Harrington Hall. This too was in a perfect neighborhood- quiet, next to the Glouster Street tube, surrounded by eating places (try All Bar One), grocery stores and a mini-mall. We took the train to York for a day, booked the train ticket and York pass on-line and then on another day took a one-day charter bus to Oxford and the Cotswalds (the bus picked up in front of the hotel). There are many tours going to Stonehenge and Astral Tours has one for after-hours, actually going in amongst the stones. There are many professionally run train and bus charters for jaunts into the countryside if you feel better not driving. Driving in unfamiliar places, trying to find your way in ancient towns with extremely narrow streets and on the other side of the road can be stressful. Personally, having done that, my husband and I like to take a charter bus and trains for our "outings". I wanted to take an "orientation" tour the first day in each city. I chose an on-and-off sightseeing bus and would not do that again. The bus took 3 hours in London to take us from near the hotel to the Tower of London, making many stops and staying at each stop for 10-15 minutes. Instead, I would do a full or half day "organized" tour that stops at some main sights. We missed much in London beause the bus took too long to go from point-to-point. We found many tour operators through a search on the web. With your budget, you should have a great time in both places. My daughter and I had much fun planning the trip over the web- you can find about anything that you want to do! My main advice would be to know that 18 days worth of travelling can be very tiring- do what you can to eliminate stressful situations when you can (like not driving), give yourself some days that are not filled to the brim with sightseeing, take time to enjoy your surroundings (you mentioned picnics),and not overdo--and to have fun!

letstalk

I forgot another site for hotels:
http://londontown.com/
And I definitely would not drive in Paris! Been there, done that and have the T-shirt!

DianeP

Hi Katiebug
My husband and I just returned from a lovely trip to Paris, Burgundy, and Champagne region.
We stayed at a B&B located in Puligny Montrachet in the Burgundy region called La Chouette. It was located right in a vineyard in a very small town. The place was wonderful and if you like good food the owners also operate a wonderful Micheln starred restaurant in the same town. We really love wine and this region was great to explore.
We rented a car at the Orly airport south of Paris and drove to the Burgundy region and the Champagne region. It was a very easy drive and having a car is essential in the countryside. Check out La Chouette at www.la-chouette.fr
Have a great trip
Diane