jobo

I haven't been to France quite as much as Stu (who has?) but we spent a month in France last year with our 13 year old and he had a blast; even now he repeats that he wants to get back to France as soon as possible. Great that you are taking your 13 year old. Just two highlights of our trip. Oradour-sur-glane, a town left as it was destroyed by the Germans, a wonderful museum attached to it describing the town before and after the attack, and as you head to Provence -- Figeac, a small village, non-touristy.

sap

Cees, you are a gem. You always send me digging to look up something new or newly presented. Thanks much for the info about what might be open on a Sunday as Stu's warnings make me feel as if we could be trying to travel through purgatory if we venture out on a Sunday without a bag of pistachios. I had earlier noted Guedelon, but had crossed it off as possibly too far from our route, though my son would be fascinated (as would I). Still, if time allows, perhaps it's not too far from Vezelay.

I haven't responded for a couple of days as the nose was to the grindstone, both workwise and in terms of trip planning.

I have decided to forego Lyon for another trip when we can do it more justice as an end-note to the Alsace-Lorraine/Comte-Alps.

I believe I've loosely worked out the Provence portion. I was truly amazed at what it has to offer once I started delving in and I'm afraid I'm going to have to cut half of it off for another trip (combined with the above-mentioned eastern wing, perhaps.)

Provence, of course, follows five nights in Burgundy and coming down from Beaune with an overnight in Perogues. I'm looking at the Hostellerie du Vieux-Perouges - anyone ever stayed there? I hear Bill Clinton ate there once, but that little anecdote doesn't necessarily recommend it. I'm more interested in the fact that it has "medieval charm," though that could just mean an antique mattress and countless generations of bedbugs. Places to stay in Perouges and surrounds are a bit slim on the pickings, but it looks like a lovely little town.)

Monday:
Spend more time in Perouges in the morning?
Cremieu
Chateau Crussol ruins near Saint-Peray - a good little leg-stretcher?
Mirmande
Vaison-la-Romaine (Spend 3 nights)

(I've decided to base the first part of the Provence visit in Vaison because it's better located to what I want to see up north than Uzes. The two places I'm looking to stay are the Hostellerie le Beffroi, or alternatively Les tilleuls d'Elisée. Any opinions? Remember that having our darling little third-wheel teen son means we are limited to triples as I can't bring myself to spring for the cost of a second room.)

2nd Tuesday:
Market Day in Vaison-la-Romaine
Dentelles Scenic Drive and Winetasting:
Seguret
Sablet
Gigondas
Vacqueyras
Beaumes de Venise
Caromb
Modène
Saint-Pierre-de-Vassols
Bedoin
Malaucène
Crestet
Back to Vaison-la-Romaine
(I'm excited. This area appears to be a marriage between Napa and the Santa Cruz Mountains.)

Wednesday:
Orange
Pont du Gard
Uzes and surrounding villages (Colliers, Castillon-du-Gard, Vers-du-Pont-du-Gard
Option: Chateauneuf du Pape wine tasting in village
Back to Vaison-la-Romaine
(Am I cramming too much into this day? How long will Orange and Pont-du-Gard take?)

Thursday:
Leave Vaison-la-Romaine
Mazan
Venasque
Pernes-les-Fontaines
L’Isle-sur-les-Sourge
Villeneuve-lez-Avignon
Avignon
Saint-Remy-de-Provence (for 4 nights, possibly at Mas Shamrock B&B - I know it's been discounted on Fodors to date, but dang it has been highly rated of late on Trip Advisor, which rarely steers me wrong. Any Fodorites been there lately?)

Friday:
Luberon Villages Tour:
Gordes
Oppede le Vieux
Menerbes
Lacoste
Bonnieux
Fort de Buoux
Roussillon
Goult
St. Pantaleon

Saturday:
Arles
Terascon Chateau

Sunday:
Glanum
Les Beaux-de-Provence
Eygalieres
Le Jardin de l’Alchimiste in Eygalieres
Back to Saint-Remy-de-Provence

From this itinerary, you can see it is obvious that I worship at Stu's feet. (Plus, he's the same age as my husband and I can always say, "Well, if Stu can do this, so can you! Now tamp it down and eat your pistachios."-- Of course, I'm trying to cram each of Stu's four weeks into one. What can I say, I've got a lot of German & Norman blood. I view these things as campaigns. Hence the planning 15 months in advance for heaven's sake.)

Does anyone have any thoughts on their favorite Provencale villages? The online sights and guidebooks make them seem equally wonderful, which obviously can't be true. I know much of this is subjective and based on timing, mood, what you've consumed already (like wine), but a variety of input is always very, very welcome.

I've decided to skip Nimes. It'll be a Monday when I head out, we will have already seen a lot of Roman ruins, and I think Montpellier might deserve more of my attention as I'll be in a bit of a hurry to move through the south (at least this trip). It will be a real challenge to work out the most sane (yet picturesque) way to get to the Dordogne via the Languedoc in only two days. I'm not just going to need a chisel to sculpt Stu's Dordogne notes. I'll need a machete.

Thank you all!

sap

Oops, pardonne moi: Two corrections that I can't let go - online "sites" (duh) and the fact that the machete is needed to hack up Stu's Languedoc notes, not those of Dordogne which I plan to savor much more. Big difference, hmm? I wouldn't want to horrify those Dordogne fans with such a terrible image.

ceesvanhalderen

BLH & Michael, thanks for the tip. I have used that one; however I was actually looking for an option "please notify me via email when somebody post something new on this thread", but that does not seem to exist.

SAP: You were mentioning Pérouges somewehere, and has anybody stayed there. My answer is no, however, for some pictures (I have been there, but these things are day-trips from here) see this (temporary) link.
http://picasaweb.google.com/cormatin11/PerougesTemp#
I will take the pictures off at some stage, to reduce the amount of Picasa albums I am having.
I had a quick glance at your itinery for Provence, and you really stunned me. I have been to Provence a number of times, in the days I was a bit younger, when I was running around like a lunatic to see as much in one day as possible. Chapeau if you can do what you propose to do!
As an example:

Thursday:
Leave Vaison-la-Romaine
Mazan
Venasque
Pernes-les-Fontaines
L’Isle-sur-les-Sourge
Villeneuve-lez-Avignon
Avignon
Saint-Remy-de-Provence

I could possibly have squeezed in the last three items in one day, although seeing Avignon properly could easily occupy you one full day, squeezing in Villeneuve as well. In Saint Remy, with its Roman ruins and van Gogh trail, I could easily spend half a day alone.

And this is just a quiet day in your itinery!
Nobody mentioned Gorges du Verdon; I think they are wonderful, but maybe for Americans (most of you are I suppose) a canyon may be gefundenes Fressen.
For Cloggies, everything sticking out above grade more than 1 m (3 feet) is a mountain, and anything deeper than a ditch is a ravine.

sap

I agree, Cees, that Thursday does sound like quite a bit, but in fact the first four towns are only quick stops or drive-throughs (tastings, if you will) on the route to Avignon and its little sister. Avignon is the real focus that day. We are staying in Saint-Remy for four nights, so I didn't expect to necessarily do a thorough visit of it at all that first evening. I'll spend more time there as our schedule allows on consecutive days.

The Dentelles Drive (Tues) and the Luberon Drive (Fri) are both groupings of villages that Stu believes are each manageable in one-day circular routes - again more in the nature of "tastings," with some being merely drive-throughs.

It's the Wednesday in Orange/Uzes/Pont du Gard that I'm wondering is too big a bite to chew, though it's a nice circular swing to and from Vaison. I imagine I will have to give up the idea of Chateauneuf-du-Pape that day for sure.

Thanks for the Pérouges pics; and you may be right about the Gorges. I didn't plan to go out of my way for any on this particular trip, though I'm sure they're wonderful. I grew up near the Rocky Mountains and I've lived within driving distance of the Sierra Nevada Mountains for 25 years. Plus, we'll focus on the Alps during a separate, future trip.

StuDudley

We've stayed at the Hostellerie du Vieux-Perouges - but that was about 25 years ago. It was great then.

We've walked past the Hostellerie le Beffroi about a half dozen times, and had dinner there once. It is in the old medieval section of Vaison - the 13YO should find it very interesting. However, it is up a steep winding hill and getting the car there & parking is difficult. You can easily park down below & walk up - but just be aware of that.

Your Thursday in Provence is indeed a little crowded - especially if you take the Pernes long fountain walk (there is a shorter one). However, the 13YO might love all the fountains. I would do Villeneuve-lez-Avignon last - after visiting Avignon. Avignon may take a lot longer than you anticipate - and I bet you'll choose to skip Villeneuve. I never plan to do an "official" visit of the town where we are staying (in your case - St Remy). You'll see plenty of it at the beginning & ending of each day - this is actually better since you'll be able to see it without the day-trippers.

We spent 3 weeks in the France Comte in '08 - is that the Comte you are referring to?? Nice area - but for a first timer with a teen - I think other regions would be more interesting.

Are you visiting Alsace? We've spent a few weeks there too. I actually have a shorter itinerary for Alsace - e-mail me if you would like it.

Stu Dudley

ceesvanhalderen

Hi Sap. It was not meant to be nasty. The other thing nobody has mentioned is Senanque (I think everybody will know the picture of the wonderful Cistercien abbey with the lavanderfields in the foreground) or Silvacane. both are school examples of the first modular design in the world, and are beutiful in their simplicity. All Cistercien abbeys are more or less built according to the same pattern. Senanque can be visited by reservation only (still in use as a monastry); Silvacane is open to the public.
With regards to your Orange day: I picked on Avignon because Avignon is a reasonably big town with lots to see.
But I think your whole itinery is a bit on the heavy side, to say the least, and that goes for each day. I think you can do Orange, Pont du Gard and Uzès in one day, but I would skip the villages.
Having said that, I cannot imagine that your itinery is so rigid that you cannot skip something on the day itself.
Uzès is lovely, especially on a market day (however, that is on a Saturday).
And yes, I understand that you do not go stark raving mad about a canyon. On the other hand, I do not understand why foreigners are so fascinated by endless views across boring meadows with a few cows thrown in for good measure. The Dutch Tourist industry contradicts me in dollars...

sap

Hi, Jobo. Thanks for your two cents. I had looked into Oradour-sur-glane and was quite intrigued (even the pictures make you cry), but my husband was horrified when I described it to him and claimed there was no way he would want to see something like that. It also might be a tad too far north to fit into the Dordogne portion of our itinerary.

Figeac is definitely on our list, though I'm still working out the details of our visit to that area. I'm very glad to hear that it's a non-touristy town.

My son keeps saying he'd rather go to Italy for some reason (which is next on our list), but I'm sure he'll have a blast in France. Teens are ridiculously, knee-jerkingly contrary. Before we went to England, he and his older sister kept saying they'd rather go to France. They're lucky we take them anywhere at all. My only big trip as a kid was camping in the Tetons and Yellowstone -- not exactly cultural.

sap

Okay, if I just pick, say, two villages instead of four to visit on the way to Avignon (since I'm driving through anyway), which two should I pick? It sounds like Pernes-les-Fontaines. Should the other be L’Isle-sur-les-Sourge? I'll then skip Mazan, Venasque and Villeneuve.

I do tend to tack "if we're in the neighborhood" items onto my itineraries. If I know what the main focus is on a particular day, then I don't feel badly about skipping the extras. It's kind of like having extra provisions for a party even though it's more than anyone can consume. We'll just save the leftovers for later. But, if we're just standing around bored (like that would happen), I do want to have options.

Stu: Alsace and French-Comte are being saved for another trip and are high on the next, next list (the one after Normandy/Brittany). In fact, I'm saving the eastern side of Provence for that third trip, too.

Cees: that means that I'll have to save Senanque and Aix-en-Provence for that later eastern wing journey, too. BTW, I didn't think at all that you were being nasty, but I did probably come across as overly defensive in my response. I do truly appreciate any tips on what to cut or substitute. Yes, go ahead and pry these things out of my hands.

I'm also a little bit with you, Cees, on the fields & cows. I've lived in both cities and rural areas. A lot of city folks are amazed by that "as far as the eye can see" perspective, but I grew up in the midwest and have seen plenty of all that. As much as I love natural beauty, my thrill-seeking in Europe is focused on the old culture, art, monuments, castles & quaint villages that don't exist back home. All of Europe seems to be one living, breathing museum and I'm amazed that its people walk by these things with nary a glance because it's normal to them. For instance, I was "walking" from St-Remy to Glanum in Google Street View and there, on the side of the road, is the Roman arch and not a soul in sight. That kind of casual encounter of something so archaic makes one feel very small & insignificant. The Greco-Roman culture never ceases to stun me (and that was only a virtual view). I can't imagine living among its great ruins!

sap

Oh, stupid me. I meant that Silvacane was too far east (SE actually). Senanque is the one just north of Gordes. I had definitely planned to see Senanque. (All these new place names are swirling in my head and my 43-year-old brain is easily confused - especially as the short-term memory ain't what it used to be.)

StuDudley

>>which two should I pick? It sounds like Pernes-les-Fontaines. Should the other be L’Isle-sur-les-Sourge? I'll then skip Mazan, Venasque and Villeneuve.<<

Mazan is just a "drive through" - I mainly suggested it in my itinerary to kinda "force" people to drive through some pretty countryside on the way to the Luberon. I would try to visit Venasque and do Vileneuve last if you still have time left in the day.

Many people would think visiting the Luberon Villages in 1 days is difficult or impossible. It really depends on how early a start you get, how much time you spend on lunch, how much you shop for goodies, and how late in the day you like to tour. Here is something I posted to Slow Travel many years ago

8:00 or 8:30 - Get to Gordes, pull the car over at the view "spot" & take a picture. Park the car in the lot, and visit Gordes. Have a cafe creme & croissants for breakfast at one of the outdoor cafes. Walk down to the Lavoire & back. Explore Gordes. 1 1/2 hrs in Gordes - including breakfast

10:00 leave Gordes.
10:30 arrive in Oppede le Vieux & explore a bit
11:30 leave Oppede, drive to Menerbes
11:45 arrive in Menerbes & explore. Grab a sandwich for lunch & sit on a bench with a view & have lunch.
12:45 leave Menerbes
1:00 arrive in Lacoste, drive up towards the village & view Bonnieux across the valley. No visit of Lacoste. Drive to Bonnieux.
1:45 Visit Bonnieux (sandwich, if you didn't have one in Menerbes) 1 1/2 hrs in Bonnieux
3:15 leave Bonnieux & head to Roussillon.
3:45 arrive in Roussillon, park the car, and explore Roussillon. Visit the Ocre fields. Have an afternoon coffee at a cafe. 2 hrs in Bonnieux, including cafe sitting
5:45 Leave Roussillon. If you still have some energy left, visit Goult - otherwise, call it a day.

Stu Dudley

sap

Perfect, Stu. Love the details & timing.

Shopping? Unless it involves food (or antiques in my husband's case), it's out of the question. My guys will get that exasperated, panicked look on their faces if I even walk in the direction of a shop. I can't handle the guilt while they loiter around all hangdog with their hands in their pockets.

Quick, cheap sandwiches on a bench are definitely my idea of lunch when I'm sightseeing. Lolling around in a cafe is a luxury I set aside for Paris, but won't have much time for the rest of the trip. Still, operating on the French schedule - or lack thereof -may force one to "chill out" a bit more than planned.

Packing lightly and traveling more slowly are two things I am having difficulty training myself to do, but the latter won't really be possible until we retire.

blh

We stayed at Hostellerie le Beffroi in Vaison in 2004 and found it quite charming. The parking is a little difficult - could be worse at busier times of the year. We were there in the fall, so it wasn't really a problem. We also enjoyed the market day in Vaison which is set up across on the "new" side.

We stayed in Villeneuve-lez-Avignon for a couple of days on one trip. Don't think you will miss much there. I would definitely stop in L’Isle-sur-les-Sourge - we have never stayed there, but have loved stopping there for lunch. You can dine outside overlooking the river - it's just so pleasant. The mid-week market is fun too. It's just such a pretty setting. I would think the Sunday market would be a little hectic unless that was the main goal - shopping!