I have actually just been working on the day in southern Burgundy on the way to Perogues, which includes many of things blh and cees have mentioned. My biggest problem is that this portion of the trip falls on a Sunday. While visiting the castle ruins of Brancion, Chateau Cormatin and Cluny will at least still be possible, I'm not sure about whether the villages & towns themselves will be shuttered-up that day. (This aspect of French culture is really going to take some getting used to.) I suppose I could just stock up on picnic items (and gas, of course) on Saturday before we leave Beaune.

I am also seriously considering Pierreclos, but can find so little independent (meaning objective) information on it, other than the links from Cees' site, which do make it seem wonderful, especially as it includes wine tasting. Has anyone else ever visited the Pierreclos Chateau? I think perhaps it is relatively new to the public.

My second problem is that I'm concerned it will be a rather long drive that day - about three-hours not counting the stops, but Sunday is probably a good day to make that trek down toward Provence anyway if towns are "closed." Do you all think it is feasible to come down from Beaune, sadly skipping Tournus as it is a Sunday, then seeing Brancion, Cormatin, Cluny and Pierreclos before finishing the day at a B&B in Perogues - or should I find somewhere closer to stay before heading down to Provence the next morning?

Hi, bhl: Regarding Vezelay, I am glad to have yet another positive opinion about it. Taking Stu's recommendation, I had certainly planned to use that as my base, but then I became a bit alarmed when I saw how far it was to travel back and forth to it from the villages on the other side of A5. After look into it further, though, I still sounds like such a terrific little village that I guess it will probably be worth it.

Regarding the "Villages of France" you recommended, I think Michael had mentioned that, too, during one of his trip reports. I will certainly track it down. Thanks you!

We visited Pierreclos in Sept '06. It was an OK (not the best) chateau to tour - but they were working on it at the time. Perhaps they have completed work. Unless it is finished and someone else reports that it is very nice - I would skip it & visit others in the area instead - or use the time to tour the countryside.

Stu Dudley

You may want to only spend one night in Vezelay and move on to Beaune for two or three nights. We used Beaune for a base and were able to see quite a lot. You could see Auxerre and the villages around Vezelay (spend the night) - then see Fontenay Abbey, Semur, Flavigny, & Chateauneuf on the way to Beaune. From Beaune, you can see La Rochepot and all the villages in that area. Then as you said, see Brancion and the others on your way south. We try not to make too many one night stops, but sometimes it works out for the best to avoid too much backtracking.

I know how difficult it is to map out a lengthly trip especially when it's your first time to an area. You have started early and have plenty of time to do the research. And since it won't be set in stone, you can always tweek it here and there as you do more research. I always do! Good luck with your planning. You are already making a lot of progress.

Thanks for the encouragement Stu, blh & everyone else. Here's what I have so far, mainly based on Stu's plan and input from others:

Tuesday:
TGV from Paris to Auxerre (1 1/2 hours)
Day in Auxerre, plus taking the time to rent a car somewhere
Vezelay (base for 2 nights)

Wednesday:
Chablis
Tanlay
Ancy le Franc
Noyers
2nd Night in Vezelay

Thursday:
Fontenay Abbey
Semur-en-Auxois
Vandenesse-en-Auxois (just to walk by canal w/view of Chateauneuf)?
Chateauneuf-en-Auxois
Beaune (base for 3 nights)

Friday:
Dijon for most of the day - market that day, too?
Back to Beaune for the late afternoon/evening

Saturday:
Chateau La Rochepot
Chateau Sully
vineyard driving/degustation? - still need to work out details, though perhaps I want to avoid too much driving on Sat as there will be a lot on Sun)
Back to Beaune

Sunday:
Brancion
Chapaize - just driving through; church is right there on road
Chateau Cormatin
Cluny? - Haven't decided for sure
Chapelle des Moines in Berze-la-Ville?
Chateau Pierreclos? - Still waffling
Perouges

I'm using Stu's detailed notes on Provence to work out the next several days after that before moving on through the Languedoc (briefly) to Dordogne.

Before that, though, I'm trying to decide if it's worth attempting to venture into Lyon for a day or two. My questions involve whether 1) having a car would actually present a problem with that city; 2) it would be worth taking the time away from Provence, Languedoc & Dordogne; and 3) we could actually cover any of it in just a day or two. Moreover, Stu doesn't seem particularly enamored with the Lyon area and I trust his judgment so far. Any thoughts from anyone else in this regard? The old town center does seem pretty interesting, if you can squeeze past the industrial outer layer.

>>Saturday:
Chateau La Rochepot
Chateau Sully<<

Market day in Beaune in the am !!!

Stu Dudley

We like Lyon quite a bit - but as you indicated, except for a few small villages in the Lyon region (Perouges & Cremieu) we didn't find the area between Beaujolais (stayed 2 weeks) and northern Provence to be that interesting or scenic. Too much ugly commerce on the Rhone. There are some nice Roman Ruins just south of Lyon, but you'll see plenty of Roman Ruins in Provence. To the southwest of Lyon in the Ardeche (stayed 2 weeks) and southeast in the Vercors Alps (2 days), the scenery is quite dramatic - but that might be too far out-of-the-way for you.

Stu Dudley

Market day in Beaune - yes, it works out perfectly that day, doesn't it? (Plus, we can stock up for the Sunday drive.)

So, what is your opinion on whether I should allow a day or two for Lyon and whether a car is a problem?

Stu, I'm looking at your Dentelles/Vaison day trip and your Luberon villages tour now and am thrilled with them. How long do you think I should reasonably plan to spend in each village on an initial "taste of the town" loop through them? I realize it will depend on what we like or don't like when we get there, but as far as allotment for the day, do you think one hour each for the larger, more popular ones and half-hour for the itty-bitty places? Do you remember vaguely how much time you spent in each on your first exploratory visit? I was making the assessment based on our experiences with the English Cotswold villages.

Thanks so much for your enormous help.

Most of the villages in the Luberon are quite small. Gordes, perhaps the most popular, can be visited in 30-45 mins if you wander around the chateaux area only - longer if you take the walk down to the lavoire that I sugested. Roussillon & Bonnieux will take 45 mins to 1 hr. Saignon 30-45 mins. Oppede depends on how much time you like to spend climbing around ruins. It can be a drive-by also. The others can be drive-thrus (perhaps Saignon can be skipped to save time).

When we visited Lyon, we packed an overnight & did it as a 1 night/2 day train trip from Avignon. We've taken the train to Lyon & driven out of Lyon - but never into Lyon - so I don't know how difficult parking is. Perhaps if you are going to visit Paris, Dijon, Avignon, and Aix - that is enough large cities for this trip.

Stu Dudley

Hi, Sap.
With regards to Lyon:
Have a look at this.
http://www.lyontraboules.net/impr_saint_jean.php
Traboules are narrow alleys THROUGH blocks of houses. They have a front and backdoor, not all are accessible. It is fun though; they used to carry sheets of silk through these traboules. Me and my wife spent a full morning crossing all sorts of traboules, and enjoyed every minute of it. Someone told us (we have not had time to try it out though) that there is free parking on the hill where the Roman remains are ( the Fourvière hill, well indicated on the main road into Lyon); a funicalaire takes you down to the old town, and Lyon has a Metro as well. Don't forget to look at the (house size) wall paintings.

Yep - those passages are quite interesting. Sometimes the entrance may seem to be behind a locked door. We were standing in front of one once, when a lady walked by on the street we were on, noticed us, and then rang a buzzer on the outside which unlocked the door. She motioned for us to go ahead & enter the passage. We walked in & explored the innards of the passage complex.

Stu Dudley

Funny, we had the same experience. Also a nice French lady told us how it worked. However, not all are working that way, although the majority is. The Tourist office organises tours which bring you at set times through some of the "forbidden ones". I noticed in the first posting an interest for bargains at brocantes, puces or vide greniers. In my view all these things are thorough rip-offs, certainly around here. We have been looking for 2nd hand furniture, but decided to go for IKEA. Considerably cheaper and you know what quality to expect.
for romanesque churches :
http://picasaweb.google.com/ceesvanh...esAroundCluny#
Possibly the last character (#) in the path name does not become part of the link. In that case add # manually.
By the way does this "thing" # have a name???? In Holland we do not use / know it, apart from seeming to remember it stands for number? in American. Reinforcement bars were indicated as #5, #7 etc. (5/16, 7/16 of an inch?)

hi cees - in the UK,we call it a "hash".

Hi, Ann.
Thanks! I was lazy last night, hence I did not look it up in Wikipedia. The "official" name seems to be Number sign. In America it is called a Pound sign, in England, as you said Hash sign, in Holland Hekje (= Gate, that is what it looks like) or more official Kardinaalsteken (Cardinal sign, used in mathematics to indicate a number of elements in a Set).
As Wikipedia stated, the sign has hardly any significance in the Netherlands, with the exception of in Maths. The only time I've seen or heard of it, is on a telephone dial (indeed, I do not possess a mobile!). "Close your entry with a hekje.". As I will, now, what the Hek #
Talking of Trivia....

What is it called, where and when everything intersects? The Burgundian triangle?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvthDtTFx9I
I just stumbled upon this one, a bit long winded, but interesting all the same. The Château Cormatin is far more intersting inside than the film shows.

I think this will be my last posting, unless something else comes up. I read diagonally through all these postings, and I might still be able to help out here and there.
Sap mentioned shopping before a Sunday trip.
Most towns have supermarkets (not necessarily hypermarchés!) which are often open on a Sunday morning. Cluny is a good example; small town, 2 (big, based on Dutch experience) supermarkets of which one (Atac) is open all year around on Sunday mornings, the other (Intermarché) the same, but only in July & August. Hypermarchés (Géant, Auchan, Leclerc, Carrefour), allways on the outskirts of towns, follow generally the same pattern. Cormatin (pop. 503! yes, five hundred and three) boasts 2 bakers open Sunday morning and Sunday late afternoon, 1 very small supermarket, open Sunday morning, a newspaper shop open Sunday morning. Hence do not panic. Some towns are a bit more lively when it comes to street life; brocantes, puces and vide greniers are normally on Sundays, and e.g. Chalon-sur-Saône has a market on Sunday morning. In my view Monday is the pits, but we always have found one or two museums (Cluny Abbey) that are open on Monday (Note: by far not all!).
at the bottom of my tourist page you will find a link to markets in S&L (they break up before 1 o'clock!) and Brocantes in the whole of France, if you are planning in so much detail.
http://www.latuileriechazelle.com/uk/tourist.html
Where Pierreclos is concerned, yes, I have been there. It is a nice château, if I remember well with a nice gothic chapel on the grounds, a wonderful vaulted cellar for the dégustation. My problem with tastings is, that I cannot spit the wine out on the floor, that is somehow against my religion. On the other hand, you cannot drink all, when you still want to walk out in a straight line. In general everything I mentioned I know quite well, except for Lyon. I love to go back there to see all the things I missed, but I simply did not get around it. The traboules are first hand experience.
Where châteaux are concerned, I was however more impressed with Berzé-le-Chatel; wonderfully set on a hill top, not far from Pierreclos, and not far from the Chapelle des moines (Berzé-la-Ville). Pity is that the castle is privately owwned. However, they do tours around the castle grounds, and I and my party (wife & 2 "children") were well impressed with the outside alone.
blh commented on Brancion.
He/she is absolutely right. The harp player, Didier Kugel, is still around during the summer, sometimes with a violin player. Concerts are free, but donations go to the restauration fund. Interesting detail: the restauration was done partially by convicts from a nearby prison. Not forced labour, but a rehab-program, to prepare them for return to society. They, and other volunteers and professionals, did a wonderful job. Kugel performs not only in Brancion, but also in Chapaize and Tournus.
A last little hint: If you want detailed travel guides (I think lonely planet is excellent if you want to do France in a week or less!) Michelin has good guides (Green Guide) in English. However, the French versions (Guide Verte), if you read French, are better. Often they cover a slightly smaller area than the English version. Example : Green guide Burgundy & Jura (374 pages), Guide Verte Bourgogne (384 pages). I have checked it several times; there are certainly places mentioned in the Franch guides which are not in the English version.

Never say never.
I just remembered something, which Sap might find interesting as well. In Guédelon (Nièvre - 58 - Burgundy) they are building since the nineties a proper medieval castle with medieval means. It should be ready somewhere in the twenties. The site is open for visitors, however, not much real work is done during vistors hours. It is a very impressive place, and they do demonstrations of medieval carpentry, masonry, etc. The real work )I think) is done in winter, when the place is closed for public. For more info look here:
http://www.guedelon.fr/
I have a question for those contributing to this forum. I am a bit old(fashioned) when it comes to Blogging, Forums, etc.
Is there anyway who knows how to become a follower of this topic? I can't find it for the world. I have been following other forums, but because of the subjects, I tended to lose interest and unsubscribed at some stage. This topic interests me heavily, but I cannot subscribe to the thread.
Please?

<i>The site is open for visitors, however, not much real work is done during visitors hours. It is a very impressive place, and they do demonstrations of medieval carpentry, masonry, etc. The real work )I think) is done in winter, when the place is closed for public.</i>

The work is done while the site is open to visitors. The people working there get 4 months paid vacation in the winter according to the man who was cutting beams. The progress is slow for several reasons: limited personnel, those working are constantly asked questions, and the methods simply do not match modern industrial methods in speed.

Cees - since you have commented on this topic, it will appear under your name. Just click on your name when you sign into Fodors, and all the topics you have commented on will come up.

Thanks for the information about Brancion. I'm glad to hear the harpist is still playing. We bought one of his CD's and have enjoyed it. Also, found the information about the restoration work by convicts interesting.

Go to the listing of topics. Hold the control key down (on the Mac) while clicking on the topic that interests you. A window will appear asking you if you want to save the bookmark.