lexie

Hi PJI! Lucky you living in Spain! Thanks for your well wishes! We'll need every one of them!!!

lexie

Wow-Hi nnolen!! Thanks so much for your informative and extremely helpful post--you've touched on all of our concerns!! Have you had any difficutly with the tax situation that Cicerone mentioned if you don't mind me asking? Has ANYBODY reading this post experianced a problem in this area?
I'd heard that the Italian pharmacists were extremely knowledgeable --glad to hear it confirmed. Again, thanks for covering so much territory-- it was extremly helpful!
P.S. Very glad to hear about the heat being autonomous-- I had read that crazy thing about the heat being turned on and off in one of my "Moving to Italy" books of all things!!

stefanaccio

I lived in Italy in the 80's working as civilian for the US government. It was a nice experience because the feds pay all of your housing costs. I recently built a small house near Teramo and agree that you can eat up some serious money in utilities, transportation, etc. I like the states also so my solution is to visit Italy when it is warm and I enjoy it more anyway.

Casale-Villa with No Bidet
http://www.angelfire.com/film/casale

Cicerone

You are correct that if your income is less than US$80,000 you would not have to pay US federal income tax, although you would still be required to file a tax return each year showing that you are exempt. The US$80,000 is the current exemption amount, and Congress has been talking for years about lowering it or getting rid of it entirely, although in my 15 years living overseas this has not yet happened and the amount has in fact increased a few thousand dollars over the years. However, you should make a contingency plan in the event that Congress does lower or get rid of this exemption. You would have to pay Italian tax on your income, double taxation treaties don’t exempt income from tax, they generally only lower the applicable rate or give you a credit for some of the tax you pay to another country. You need to get specific advice on this point. Also, if the majority of your investments are in US stocks, you need to file papers each year with your broker or pension fund to ensure that tax is not withheld on your dividends and stock sale profits at the max 30% rate for non-residents, this is especially important if your pension income is in the form of stock dividends or profits from stock sales.

I took at look at one of my expat tax handbooks, and I believe your income tax rate in Italy would be somewhere between 39% and 45%, which is fairly high, IMO. Interest you pay on a mortgage is NOT deductible from your income calculation (this is common in Europe). This book is a few years old and may not be current. Dividends and interest income, which may form a large part of your retirement income, are taxed at 12.5%, but the double taxation treaty may reduce this amount. If your income is less than US$45,000 you would be in the 31% bracket (i.e. close to US federal rates), but IMO it would be hard for two people to live in the parts of Italy you are considering on $45,000 BEFORE taxes. Italy has VAT, i.e. a sales tax of between 10%-20%.

If you can get dual citizenship, that would be helpful in being able to live there without a visa and possibly buying property and passing it to heirs. The US permits dual citizenship, but does not encourage it. Please see the note at the US State Dept website at http://travel.state.gov/dualnationality.htmlt . If you run into tax issues, you might consider giving up your US citizenship, I assume SS benefits would continue to be paid to you as you already earned them, but that is another question to explore. (I hope you are not going to rely on SS income too heavily, as I can’t imagine you would be paid near enough to live on, esp. in future years and in high inflation years. Hopefully you have run calculations.)

The comments above on health care and assisted living are right on point, and something to think seriously about. While you are in good health, living in Europe could be a fun experience for a few years or part of each year. However, being in your 80s and in frail health and far from family might not be the best way to enjoy retirement.

siena_us

Couple of comments:

First, while many apartments have autonomous heating, many do not. This is something you need to look for if it is important to you. The book was right.

Taxes, Yes you do not have to currently pay double tax if your income from an Italian company is less than us$80k EACH. Next, yes you can deduct some of your interest payments if you are working and paying tax in ITaly.

The gas cannisters (bombola di gas) are in areas where gas does not reach like for my house out here in the boonies. If you live in a newer apartment you should have a gas hook up. The smaller bombole are easy to deal with although I too had to get used to it when I had m,y first apartment here. We now have the huge underground tanks which are much easier to not be scared of (out of site out of mind).

I do not find that many italians use private care unless there is something they cannot wait for. I have a private OB/GYN for my yearly visit but I can also see him for free at the hospital. I find the care above average.

You do not need a "residents" visa to buy or rent property but you do need a visa to enter the country and need to have a matching permesso di soggiorno to stay in the country.

For more info on all of the discussed topics check out my site (you can do a search for things you are interested in) as it is all info from people who have made the leap. expattalk.com

lexie

Wow Cicerone! You're hired!! You are an extremely well informed person on this topic and I can't thank you enough. The double taxation agreement has always been a source of confusion . Now that you've straightened it out for us, we need to re-evaluate things. I hadn't realized the income tax was so high. We were mistakenly under the impression that our pension checks and S.S. would not be taxed on in Italy once we paid tax on it here. Hmmmm, have to do a lot more calculating and re-assessing. No , we would not rely on our S.S. checks heavily,not uder these conditions. We have no investments in stocks here, so we don't have to worry about that at least.

The health care, again an extremely important issue for us since we will be alone. One has to take care not to romanticise what life will be like living abroad-- what we would like it to be like in Italy and what it will be in reality-- always two different things.

Well Cicerone, you have given us much so very to think about. Again, I can't tell you how invaluable your input has been. You have been so kind to take the time to respond to us in such great depth . Many thanks.

lexie

Hello siena us! Yikes-- that bombole thing again! I like the out of sight out of mind thing--if we make it to Italy, I'm definately going to try for the gas hook--up. I know , maybe I'm being silly about it-- it's just the thought of it... Anyway , must remember to check out that autonomous heating issue-- I have mild asthma and am very sensitive to cold. Don't want to run into trouble there either.

Glad to hear you find the health care above average. Also glad to hear it is not a necessity to take out private health care. We were concerned about the care and conditions in the state hospitals. Many thanks for you sharing your website with us-- you can bet I'll be on it today. We can't thank you enough for the help you've given us.

SantaChiara

Much of the above is good advice. I did not read each post thoroughly, so I won't comment extensively. I live in Italy, and I am looking at retirement five years or so down the road, so I do have some insight.

Would I retire in Italy after living here six years? Probably not. The best solution for me, and one I would encourage if you could possibly afford it, is to live 5 months in ttaly and 7 months in the U.S. There is the 180 Rule, or something like that, wherein you live even a few days over half the year in the U.S., and the rest in Italy, or Spain or wherever, thus paying U.S. taxes. Italy has global taxation in that if you pay Italian taxes, they can, and they will, tax you on any property or income you have anywhere, with no deductions for depreciation, repairs, etc.

In short taxation in Italy is horrendous (from an American point of view). On the other hand, Italians have a social net that the U.S. can't begin to approach.

Concerning the Italian health care system. It can be some of the best and some of the worst. But so could the U.S. If I were to have serious surgery, where would I go? The U.S., hands down. Not so much for the surgery part but for the after-care. Yes, you are in a large room with 12 or 14 beds, people wandering in and out, no air conditioning in the summer, and this is in intensive care. You must have family or friends who can bring you the basics and make sure the "staff" are keeping up with the medications.

On the other hand, I have never been healthier in my life living in Italy. And, yes, the pharmicists are wonderful, all-knowing and have far more power than they do in the U.S. Become their friend.

You have received so much good advice here, so I don't want to repeat it. Italy is a wonderous yet maddening country. It is magical and it is hell. Language is critical, and the bureacracy and paperwork are every bit the complete nightmare you have heard. It is horrendously expensive to own a car and drive. As for real estate, I would still hire someone at a very high price to negotiate any kind of house or apartment sale. I don't mean to discourage you, but please go into this with your eyes wide open. You really need to spend some time here before making a decision. Good luck.

stefanaccio

I think that SantaChiara hit the nail on the head. I built a house in Italy and have also come to five month Italy/seven month USA compromise. Have been many times to Gemelli (where the Pope now recuperates) to visit my seriously ill cousin and although her care is good, I would also rather be hospitalized in the USA if I have a choice.

Casale
http://www.angelfire.com/film/casale

WillTravel

I've read several times about the expectation that family members will provide food and help take care of you, if you should end up in an Italian hospital.

So what exactly happens if you are a tourist traveling alone?

lexie

SantaChiara, thank you even more extremely helpful advice.I agree,health care in America could go either way. I don't have much to compare it to except some excellant care in an E.R. in Normandy.One quick question-- would we be taxed again on soc.sec. checks? Thanks!

lexie

WillTravel, good question! It's a frightening prospect. I do think and hope that the hospitals would have a social service department to assist someone traveling alone to take care of their needs.I think.Does anyone know?

siena_us

Folks, a word of warnming, generalizing is not a good idea. The care you get in one town may be completely opposite of that you get in another town. FOr example, the hospital in Siena has A/C, rooms for only 2 people or private as well as ward rooms for 4 people. The one in Poggibonsi is brand new and VERY nice.

Yes it is helpful if you have someone with you but if yuou are all alone they will have someone for you. You do not bring your own food in any hospital that I have ever heard of BUT you do need to bring your own forks, knives, cups, glasses, TP, etc. No big deal IMO as in the US to use these things they charge you an arm, a leg and your first born.

ben_haines_london

I know two boards that give conditions for expatriates, notes by people who lived in a country. Example for Yugoslavia: http://www.realpostreports.com/rprwe...goslavia.shtml
http://talesmag.com/
And another board
http://directory.google.com/Top/Soci...e/Expatriates/

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