My husband and I are serioulsy considering a permanent move to Europe come retirement time --some years away, but still want to start gathering info from now. Strongest contenders for us are Italy and England.We would like to know if anyone has lived in or spent an extended amount of time in Italy that could share their experiances with us--positive or negitive. Visiting for 2 weeks is going to be a completely different experiance obviously. We have no "Under the Tuscan Sun" expectations. We won't be looking for jobs , so we would like to know the basic's regarding life there--cost of living ,is it better to buy or rent-that kind of thing.We aren't wealthy but can probably afford to buy a moderate 2 bedroom house. That's all we'd need. Also, does anyone know if it's true that in apartments the heat is only turned on for 8 hours a day?! I'd read that somewhere and was not happy about it! Anyway, we'd appreciate any kind of input.Oh--our Italian is fair but is a work in progress! Grazie!!

Hi Lexie,

>We aren't wealthy but can probably afford to buy a moderate 2 bedroom house. <

Be prepared for major sticker shock.

I suggest that you go to www.slowtrav.com. They have an expats board for Italy.

PS,

The most outrageous part of the movie version of Tuscan Sun was that it took only about a year to renovate a villa in a small Italian town.

That's funny, Ira. The books give an entirely different idea about the renovations than the movie (which I haven't seen).

"Italy" covers a lot of territory. The costs, lifestyles, and challenges will vary widely depending upon whether you mean,for example, Bolzano,some expat village in Tuscany, Rome, Bologna, or a small town in Calabria or Puglia.

Hi Ira-- are you the same Ira who gave me the great restaurant recommendation for Tuscany? Anyway, thanks for www.slowtravel.com Checked it out--it's great. I guess the reason I brought up Under the Tuscan Sun was because I didn't want anyone to think we thought moving to Italy was a great little fair-tale-- in the movie, the only hardship Signora Frances had to endure was smashing a scorpion. Seems she had the energy to cook loads of great meals for the workers too. No realistic difficulties were presented ,nor should they be in a fluffy romantic comedy-- the great scenery was enough to get me through the movie. Also, I have been checking out some sites found in I found in ITALY magazine [re: the 2 bedroom house thing] and did actually find properties in the north that were within our price range--some houses that were recently renovated,some apartments. Of course we're not buying anything site unseen! Thanks for your input.

Another book I found interesting, although it's a bit dated now, was Playing Away.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...l/-/0743213076

The chapter in that book on buying property would be useful. At least at the time of publication in 1988, the deeds and title system was effectively a mess. It was quite possible that you could discover decades later that your neighbor's great-grandmother had been given the right to pick peaches on your property, and you would have to pay off her descendants to get a clear title, etc. So a really good Italian advocate would be essential, I think.

Hi WillTravel! A quick question for ya-- I read the books a while ago and can't remember the time frame that it actually took to do the renovations--can you refresh my memory? Now you 've got me curious. Oh--consider yourself lucky not to have seen the movie!

Hi KT ! You brought up a good point-- I should have been more specific in my locations,which from what I'm seeing makes a huge difference price wise --cost of living in different regions of course also vary widely. Funny you should mention Bolzano-- that is one of the towns we were interested in researching, as well as Trento.. I guess our general interests lie in the north. Definately not in a large city -too costly. But not too rural either.I dunno KT, all I can say is thanks and wish us luck! Momma mia.

For Lexie and Ira,

An FYI, the expats part of the board at SlowTrav moved a few months ago to its own host at http://www.expattalk.com which is the board for http://www.expatsinitaly.com

HTH
Cristina

Thanks siena us! I'm going there right now.

I've not heard of the heat only being on 8 hours in apts. Our apartment had heat but we paid the gas bill so we kept it on as little or as much as we wanted. This was a brand new apartment and we were just happy to have heat. Some won't. In that case, you will have to get bumbula (sp?) heaters (like a small propane tank that hooks to the back of a heater on wheels) or a plug in electric heater for each room, ect. But electricity is expensive and the breakers usually pop if you have more than one or two plugged in at a time. Some houses have heat where there is a big tank out in the yard and you have to have the gas company come out and deliver when you run out. Other apartments have heaters where you hook the bumbulas up outside and they run the radiators/hot water heater. Usually they run out when you are in the shower! So, there are many different types of ways to heat your home. Just look for a home with the type that suits you.

lexie, I don't remember the time frame. I just remember it seemed to be endless. And always one new, undiscovered expense after another - although of course it's the same here if you decide to buy a really old house and renovate it.

That's o.k.WillTravel-- I thought it took them an exoberant amount of time-something we might have tried to pull off 20 years ago! Im' gonna go back and re-read the two books again-- that movie's got me all screwed up!

Hi PJI, I'm sooo glad your new apartment has heat! That' what want- to be able to controll it ourselves. I've heard about those bumbula and I'm quite frightened of the concept. Maybe it's just because it's new to us and we don't want to blow up anything. No--we really don't.Well the best thing to I suppose is make our wishes known to the realtor and pray a lot. Maybe we'll get lucky! Thanks a lot - you did really make me feel better.

Assuming you are US citizens, I would not think the Europe is a great place to retire, based primarily on the fact that income tax rates are higher than the US, and you will of course still be liable for US income tax on your income in excess of about US$80,000 a year. Also unless Medicare or a former employer’s policy would cover you outside the US (I don’t think so), you would have to get private health insurance, which can be expensive for seniors. As noted above, outside of southern Italy, I think you will find the cost of housing and living to be quite high, esp. in the Tuscany region. You might look in Sicily and parts of the mainland south of Rome, but in that case language will be a bit of an issue and health care will be below par for the most part.

You may be able to live part of the year in Italy and the rest in the US and escape Italian taxation. You will need some good tax advice on this. Also, as a US citizen you can’t stay indefinitely in Italy on a tourist visa, and would need to apply for a residents visa (especially to rent or buy property) which while not hard to get, would certainly put you on the tax rolls. I don’t know what property or other local taxes would be in Italy.

Citizens of EU countries have much more freedom to live visa-free in other EU countries, are used to the high tax rates and don’t pay taxes in their country of citizenship if they are not resident there. That makes Italy an attractive retirement option for people from EU countries.

Tax rates in the UK are among the highest in Europe, I think only the Scandinavian countries are higher. Many UK citizens retire to Spain as cost of living and taxes are lower, and some retire to Italy as well.

Actually lexie we live in Spain now and are back to a house with no heat/air con. We have butano heaters now (same as bumbula) and they work pretty well. It doesn't get terribly cold here but these houses aren't insulated (much like Italian houses) so it can be rather chilly. Those marble floors in the morning can be COLD. Get some good slippers! Like I said, its not unbearable but we are on our last butano and are actually going out to the local feed store down the street tonight to pick up a few refills. Most gas companys deliver them also, straight to your house but we just get them when we need them. Check to see what your hot water heater/stove run on too when you talk to the realtors. Our stove is butano, but we have been using the same one for about 7 months now and still haven't run out. Surely this will happen when I am cooking a feast for guests and I don't have a spare.

I am jealous - we LOVED living in Italy (Sicily to be exact). You will love it and will hopefully come to love all of the little inconveniences that come with it. Congratulations!

Lexie,
I lived in Italy for a couple of years.

My experiences were simultaneously positive and negative, just as I'd imagine any experience is!

Funny to hear you mention "Under the Tuscan Sun." I think that book is so far removed from the reality of Italy that it's not even funny!

I lived in Italy essentially illegally (pre 9/11), but since you are trying to purchase a property, you will automatically be on the government's radar.

It is appealing to live away from the big cities in terms of pricing, etc. but the provincial nature of small towns in Italy can sometimes feel rather constricting. Also, living in a small town, the chance that there are any other expats nearby is pretty small. Every once in awhile, it's nice to have a conversation in your mother tongue!

As far as the cost of living goes, it has been getting less affordable since the arrival of the euro. The inflation rates on everyday items such as fruits and vegetables have really put a strain on the average Italian income. Pasta, however, is always cheap and filling!

As far as buying or renting goes, it is true that the price of property in Italy is astronomical. If you can afford to purchase a property, that probably makes sense, but renting works too.

As far as the heat, I have not heard that before. Every apartment I was ever in had autonomous heat (i.e. you could control your own), except in the south, where many people had no heating system at all (even in houses).

Also, the smaller town you live in, the better your Italian will have to be. A higher percentage of people in small towns are likely to only speak Italian.

As far as health care goes, I think it is something to be concerned about, particularly considering the age at which you are considering moving to Italy. There is "socialized" medicine through state hospitals, etc, but many Italians prefer to pay the higher cost of privatized physicians rather than go to the state-run facilities.

There was a much lower level of privacy and, frankly, cleanliness, in state hospitals. Even recovering from surgeries, etc. people were in a large room with about 12 patients. Private room? Forget it. I've heard that private rooms are available at the more expensive facilities.

Pharmacies are a good health resource. Every pharmacist I encountered was extremely knowledgeable and able to directly dispense medication for my illness.

For someone who has lived in the United States their whole life, the health care system could be a pretty big shock.

In the eventual case that either you or your husband would need to move to an assisted care facility, you may find yourself moving back to the United States. These types of facilities are fewer in Italy. Many older Italians are still taken care of by their families at home.

Just some objective information. BTW, I lived mostly in the central/south, so things could be different in the north as it is generally more wealthy, industrialized, and up-to-date.

All that said, Italy is a very interesting place to live. It will get on your very last nerve and drive you insane. At the same time, it's also working its way into your heart. The experience will change you, most likely for the better, and while you may move again back to the US, Italy will always be with you.

Hi Cicerone! Thanks for your helpul comments. I've got a question for you-the U.S. taxes we will have to pay-- is this what you were referring to? If we earn less than 80,000 a year in Italy, and pay Italian taxes on it,I thought we are not required to pay taxes on it in the U.S. as well. I had read this is referred to as the $80,000 exclusion.Sorry- I find this all abit confusing. Also do you know anything about the double-taxation agreement which states that you do not have to pay taxes on the same income. We do want to apply for the permesso di soggiorno and a residency visa. We will not be working in Italy and outside of our savings that would be brought over, our only income would be our S.S. check and our Pension checks which I was told we could not be taxed on again in Italy due to this agreement.Sorry to make you crazy-- yes it is certainly easier for UA citizens. We also will be applying for duel citizenship, as all of my ancesters were Italian citizens and I have all of their original documents with the required dates, thankfully.