Haggis Not Scottish
Aug 10th, 2009, 04:31 AM
#63
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P.S. "Bobbie Burns" - suggests to me a rather peppy lady with terrifying efficiency in turning leftovers into canapés for unexpected guests, for whom everything she likes is "just darling" and everything she doesn't like is ".....special". Hmm... I sense a false internet identity coming on...
Aug 10th, 2009, 04:40 AM
#64
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Yes it was used 400 years ago, along with many words from that era it is now outdated. It is considered mildy offensive and extremely annoying in modern Scotland as it has acquired negative connotations over the years. It is only considered acceptable when talking about tradition Scottish goods like pies, eggs, broth and of course whisky.
'Scotch' is derivative of the name of a country and not the name of its people - the Scots. Although it doesnt offend me particularly it does annoy me when used incorrectly.... fortunatly it is rarely used in the British isles - even the English generally don't refer to us as 'Scotch'!!!
'Scotch' is derivative of the name of a country and not the name of its people - the Scots. Although it doesnt offend me particularly it does annoy me when used incorrectly.... fortunatly it is rarely used in the British isles - even the English generally don't refer to us as 'Scotch'!!!
Aug 10th, 2009, 05:47 AM
#67
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<<Yes it was used 400 years ago, along with many words from that era it is now outdated.>>
I quite understand the offensive connotations of "Scotch" to the Scots unless used in conjunction with whiskey, terriers, thistles, mist and the like, and unlike CW I don't use it to get a rise.
However, as it is to regarded as an outdated word from previous centuries and thus to be discarded, where does that put the Scots language revival movement, whose aim, as I understand it, is to put into currency a language that flourished 400 years ago? Are they anachronistic hopeless dreamers in modern Scotland?
I quite understand the offensive connotations of "Scotch" to the Scots unless used in conjunction with whiskey, terriers, thistles, mist and the like, and unlike CW I don't use it to get a rise.
However, as it is to regarded as an outdated word from previous centuries and thus to be discarded, where does that put the Scots language revival movement, whose aim, as I understand it, is to put into currency a language that flourished 400 years ago? Are they anachronistic hopeless dreamers in modern Scotland?
Aug 10th, 2009, 06:17 AM
#69
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Just found a picture of an ancestor - pix taken by "Mess rs Low "Photograhpers and Miniature Painters; 130 Princess Street, Edinburgh" - i guess that makes me Scotch? My ancestors came from the borders region - Threepwood - near Melrose - most were rooted up when British started using land for sheep and sent these poorer Scotch to Northern Ireland - so-called shanty Irish my relatives say - then to Canada and to U.S. - kept improving their fortunes with each move i guess. But i do not like Scotch (whisky) so can i be of Scotch heritage?
Aug 10th, 2009, 06:25 AM
#70
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Maybe its just me but I dont get the argument here. In Scotland we don't like being referred to as 'scotch' for various reasons... it is used to describe produce from our country - not the natives & over the past few hundread years it has evolved into a term used to offend and aggrevate (as CW has just highlighted). I understand it is widely used with no malice intended across the world and America for example but why would you continue to use it when you are aware that it considered incorrect and disrespectful? Is it really that difficult to say 'Scots' instead?
Laverendrye - I dont understand your point. There are so many english words from the past few hundreads years ago whose meanings have since changed to less desirable. Would you have these integrated into modern society in the name of a language revival? Scots is encouraged and used widely in modern scotland and is doing just great in its revival with the omission of one word that wasnt used that much 400 years ago anyway!!!
Laverendrye - I dont understand your point. There are so many english words from the past few hundreads years ago whose meanings have since changed to less desirable. Would you have these integrated into modern society in the name of a language revival? Scots is encouraged and used widely in modern scotland and is doing just great in its revival with the omission of one word that wasnt used that much 400 years ago anyway!!!
Aug 10th, 2009, 07:51 AM
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carolemg
<<There are so many english words from the past few hundreads years ago whose meanings have since changed to less desirable. Would you have these integrated into modern society in the name of a language revival?>>
English doesn't need a "revival". It has evolved, and there is no point in trying to take it back to its 17th Century form.
While Scots never died, it certainly was supplanted by English, and its "revival" is a case of taking an old language and integrating it into modern times.
I thought your point was that when words become outdated, for whatever reason, they should no longer be used.
<<There are so many english words from the past few hundreads years ago whose meanings have since changed to less desirable. Would you have these integrated into modern society in the name of a language revival?>>
English doesn't need a "revival". It has evolved, and there is no point in trying to take it back to its 17th Century form.
While Scots never died, it certainly was supplanted by English, and its "revival" is a case of taking an old language and integrating it into modern times.
I thought your point was that when words become outdated, for whatever reason, they should no longer be used.
Aug 10th, 2009, 08:06 AM
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Laverendrye
<<I thought your point was that when words become outdated, for whatever reason, they should no longer be used.>>
Ru actually being serious?
How can you possibly think that was the point I was making?! I suggest you read all my contributions to this thread cos im getting a bit sick of repeating myself.... as I'm sure everyone else is!
<<I thought your point was that when words become outdated, for whatever reason, they should no longer be used.>>
Ru actually being serious?
How can you possibly think that was the point I was making?! I suggest you read all my contributions to this thread cos im getting a bit sick of repeating myself.... as I'm sure everyone else is!
Aug 10th, 2009, 08:08 AM
#73
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Yes before several times on Fodor's when Scottish folk decried the use of Scotch i used the word without thinking, as most Americans would do - probably because of Scotch, the drink, Scotch tape, etc.
But now, except for tongue in cheek use above i will say Scottish or Scotts i guess.
But now, except for tongue in cheek use above i will say Scottish or Scotts i guess.
Aug 10th, 2009, 08:11 AM
#74
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British started using land for sheep
Indeed?
What exactly do you mean by British.
If you mean English, the vast majority of landlords who cleared the Highlands for sheep were actually Scottish albeit Anglicised lairds .
It's worth remembering in "homecomings" that the ancestors of the clan chief you are so honoured to meet, was responsible for your ancestors having to go to America.
Have a look at
http://www.visitdunkeld.com/highland-clearances.htm
Indeed?
What exactly do you mean by British.
If you mean English, the vast majority of landlords who cleared the Highlands for sheep were actually Scottish albeit Anglicised lairds .
It's worth remembering in "homecomings" that the ancestors of the clan chief you are so honoured to meet, was responsible for your ancestors having to go to America.
Have a look at
http://www.visitdunkeld.com/highland-clearances.htm
Aug 10th, 2009, 08:39 AM
#76
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Josser - what i am reporting if family history lore and do not purport it to be accurate and thanks for the link!
My mom would throw the term 'shanty Irish' at my Dad, whose ancestors came from the Borders region via a stint in Northern Ireland. She used it derogatorily and only later did i realize that these were really Scots.
But they were Protestants who, according to family history, hated Catholics - even in Canada the history says that they had a lot of boulders or whatever in the attic 'in case the Catholics came'
My mom would throw the term 'shanty Irish' at my Dad, whose ancestors came from the Borders region via a stint in Northern Ireland. She used it derogatorily and only later did i realize that these were really Scots.
But they were Protestants who, according to family history, hated Catholics - even in Canada the history says that they had a lot of boulders or whatever in the attic 'in case the Catholics came'
