Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves ... Italian Cons
Sep 12th, 2005, 07:10 PM
#101
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So true, so true.
But almost equally offensive is the thought of some people trying to make race or other sterotyping an issue when it isn't.
For example if I see someone being really obnoxious and I say "look at that obnoxious creep" having someone notice that it is a teenager and saying "why do you think all teenagers are obnoxious?" Or if the person is black, someone saying "why do you hate all blacks"? HUH? No sometimes obnoxious people are just obnoxious, and it doesn't have anything to do with their color, age, religion or anything else.
But almost equally offensive is the thought of some people trying to make race or other sterotyping an issue when it isn't.
For example if I see someone being really obnoxious and I say "look at that obnoxious creep" having someone notice that it is a teenager and saying "why do you think all teenagers are obnoxious?" Or if the person is black, someone saying "why do you hate all blacks"? HUH? No sometimes obnoxious people are just obnoxious, and it doesn't have anything to do with their color, age, religion or anything else.
Sep 13th, 2005, 06:28 AM
#102
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Yes - but the OP characterized the scammers as Gypsies - basd on his belief that that's what Gypsies are - without having any idea who or what they are. Just scammers = Gypsies.
If that's not the height of bigotry I don;t know what is.
If that's not the height of bigotry I don;t know what is.
Sep 13th, 2005, 07:06 AM
#104
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NYTraveler, I find it hard to believe that grown-ups in an ethnically mixed country like the US (or the UK), who are mature enough to have jobs or businesses and to travel to foreign countries and to communicate with strangers on the internet, would honestly not recognize how offensive it is to use the word for an ethnic group to refer, generally, to assorted thieves, annoying street people, and unsavory types.
I also find it hard to believe that people who are belittling the criticisms really think that the gist of the criticism is merely about what's the correct label to use in referring to the ethnic group.
I also find it hard to believe that people who are belittling the criticisms really think that the gist of the criticism is merely about what's the correct label to use in referring to the ethnic group.
Sep 13th, 2005, 07:28 AM
#105
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<i>And for those who find that (statements that <b>could</b> be interpreted as bigotry)- or similar terms acceptable - I wonder how you would feel if you were addressed by or spoken about by the prejorative term for your group.</i>
Such as lawyers?
Like I keep saying, <b>life isn't black and white</b> and how I would feel depends on many things.
I fully appreciate open and honest dialogue even when words are chosen carelessly. The only way to get at the "root of meaning" is to discuss, debate, and get to know the true intent or position of those with whom you engage in conversation.
To condemn anyone, schooled in fine grammar, vocabulary, or not, is NOT freedom of speech.
Political correctness is just another form of censorship to make people think that by acting "correct" is somehow making them a better person. Hogwash.
Tis better to judge a whole person by his words, actions, and deeds and not by his words alone.
Such as lawyers?
Like I keep saying, <b>life isn't black and white</b> and how I would feel depends on many things.
I fully appreciate open and honest dialogue even when words are chosen carelessly. The only way to get at the "root of meaning" is to discuss, debate, and get to know the true intent or position of those with whom you engage in conversation.
To condemn anyone, schooled in fine grammar, vocabulary, or not, is NOT freedom of speech.
Political correctness is just another form of censorship to make people think that by acting "correct" is somehow making them a better person. Hogwash.
Tis better to judge a whole person by his words, actions, and deeds and not by his words alone.
Sep 13th, 2005, 08:22 AM
#106
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Thought police and semantics word police gone over the top once again. What would we do without their arrogant and joyless chorus? Probably have some laughs and also become with time a more binded, friendlier and kinder community for ALL in the process. Your chidding is only fostering the negatives in subsequent reactions between groups.
This is the time of year when we remember the books that have been banned in the past for these kinds of "transgressions". Mark Twain had a bunch. Is it ok to say "Yankee" in 2005?
Thanks, mdtravel, for your report which was enjoyable to read.
And kjosker, I think of that "PEACE IN OUR TIME" speech more and more when I read some of these Fodor threads.
This is the time of year when we remember the books that have been banned in the past for these kinds of "transgressions". Mark Twain had a bunch. Is it ok to say "Yankee" in 2005?
Thanks, mdtravel, for your report which was enjoyable to read.
And kjosker, I think of that "PEACE IN OUR TIME" speech more and more when I read some of these Fodor threads.
Sep 13th, 2005, 09:58 AM
#107
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I enjoyed mdtravel's post and feel that there is some merit in learning about scams/cons. Forwarned is forarmed.
I also did not take "gypsy" to mean a racial or ethnic slur. I took it to mean a profession, like prostitute, beggar or politician. But I don't consider myself to be too pc-oriented.
I just thought it was a funny post finding humor in one of the unpleasantries of leaving one's home. If you can't laugh at the pickpockets, who can you laugh at?
I also did not take "gypsy" to mean a racial or ethnic slur. I took it to mean a profession, like prostitute, beggar or politician. But I don't consider myself to be too pc-oriented.
I just thought it was a funny post finding humor in one of the unpleasantries of leaving one's home. If you can't laugh at the pickpockets, who can you laugh at?
Sep 13th, 2005, 10:48 AM
#108
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This is all very confusing. If I ever do really get back to Europe I should not recognize a group of gypsy-esque group of people who surround me and start tossing babies at me as a threat.
I am supposed to take them as colorfully dressed people and gladly hold the baby while they go through my bag so I won't offend another Gypsy.
OTOH,
I was told once that white men in business suits might grab off my gold necklace in NYC.
I am supposed to take them as colorfully dressed people and gladly hold the baby while they go through my bag so I won't offend another Gypsy.
OTOH,
I was told once that white men in business suits might grab off my gold necklace in NYC.
Sep 13th, 2005, 12:10 PM
#109
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That, peeky, is a pile of s***e.
I actually tried not to be OTT when I first posted because I realised the use was inadvertant.
The point, deja, is that the people who are "gypsyesque" probably aren't gypsies. So, unless you know they are, don't call them that. It's like describing some as, I don't know, from Harlem, because they're black, and probably a mugger or a drug user. Let's try that, shall we?
"We were targetted a few times by people from Harlem or scammers, but never lost money"
"It was over by the Nat. Museum of Rome, where apparently all the Harlem people take their dinner breaks or something. There was a surface parking lot that looked to be free; very small perhaps 40 spaces right around the Rotunda. A group of three Harlem women were hanging out in the parking lot."
Actually all you know about them is they're black- or in this case Middle European- but you pigeon-hole them as Harlem people- or gypsies-, which brings with it an assumption that all Harlem people (or gypsies) are bad.
And kris " also did not take "gypsy" to mean a racial or ethnic slur. I took it to mean a profession, like prostitute, beggar or politician." Right. I will forgive that if you confirm you meant it as a joke.
peeky, is a bunch of "gypsy-esque group of people ... surround me and start tossing babies at me as a threat(?)" see it as scam. have them arrested. Give them a hard time on Fodors- they'll be quaking in their boots at the prospect.
but don't assume they're gypsies unless you have their DNA
I actually tried not to be OTT when I first posted because I realised the use was inadvertant.
The point, deja, is that the people who are "gypsyesque" probably aren't gypsies. So, unless you know they are, don't call them that. It's like describing some as, I don't know, from Harlem, because they're black, and probably a mugger or a drug user. Let's try that, shall we?
"We were targetted a few times by people from Harlem or scammers, but never lost money"
"It was over by the Nat. Museum of Rome, where apparently all the Harlem people take their dinner breaks or something. There was a surface parking lot that looked to be free; very small perhaps 40 spaces right around the Rotunda. A group of three Harlem women were hanging out in the parking lot."
Actually all you know about them is they're black- or in this case Middle European- but you pigeon-hole them as Harlem people- or gypsies-, which brings with it an assumption that all Harlem people (or gypsies) are bad.
And kris " also did not take "gypsy" to mean a racial or ethnic slur. I took it to mean a profession, like prostitute, beggar or politician." Right. I will forgive that if you confirm you meant it as a joke.
peeky, is a bunch of "gypsy-esque group of people ... surround me and start tossing babies at me as a threat(?)" see it as scam. have them arrested. Give them a hard time on Fodors- they'll be quaking in their boots at the prospect.
but don't assume they're gypsies unless you have their DNA
Sep 13th, 2005, 12:30 PM
#112
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I didn't have time to read all the rants on this post, but I thought I would respond to the most obvious one of all. I currently live in Naples, Italy and when we get here we are told by our Intercultural Relations guide who is Italian born and raised to keep a watch out for the GYPSIES... thats right I said it and that is what I have called them since then. I agree with MD that the definition he and most people use is "gypsy One inclined to a nomadic, unconventional way of life." (answer.com)
I have lived here for about 2 years now and have visited Bella Roma many times and can tell you the gypsies are everywhere. I especially hate those that try to sell my 3 y/o toys or hand her a toy and then ask us for an outregous amount for it. It is hateful and obsene that they would use my own daughter to bribe me. I have never bought anything from gypsies and never will. They are only there to prey on those stupid enough to fall into their hands. I say when you go to a highly toured area be forwarned that they will do anything to get your valuables away from you. I don't say "don't go it isn't worth it" and you don't have to look over your shoulder every second but take precautions and don't stand out in the crowd...
I have had a bad experience with this and might have a horrible point of view but you try explaining to a 3 y/o that she can't have the "bubble blower" or the "squishy men" for a week after they force it on her...
Rant done! LOL
I have lived here for about 2 years now and have visited Bella Roma many times and can tell you the gypsies are everywhere. I especially hate those that try to sell my 3 y/o toys or hand her a toy and then ask us for an outregous amount for it. It is hateful and obsene that they would use my own daughter to bribe me. I have never bought anything from gypsies and never will. They are only there to prey on those stupid enough to fall into their hands. I say when you go to a highly toured area be forwarned that they will do anything to get your valuables away from you. I don't say "don't go it isn't worth it" and you don't have to look over your shoulder every second but take precautions and don't stand out in the crowd...
I have had a bad experience with this and might have a horrible point of view but you try explaining to a 3 y/o that she can't have the "bubble blower" or the "squishy men" for a week after they force it on her...
Rant done! LOL
Sep 13th, 2005, 12:58 PM
#114
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Deja, I know what you said. And teh clear iplication was that by saying "gypsies and scammers" MD didn't mean that gypsies were scammers.
Look guys, I will freely admit, I get pissed off when people say rascist things, even when they don't mean it. After all, some of my best friends are..... English.
But gypsy has a technical meaning. most of the thieves to who you refer aren't gypsies, and it's wrong to use the word since by implication you are suggesting that all gyspies are thieves; and all gypsies are not thieves, even tho' some are.
As I have said on one of the threads where this was discussed before- and there have been many- let's call the thieves thieves, and the beggars beggars and leave the racial epithets where they belong.
Enogh already. I don't care if this thread self combusts. I'm notlooking at it agin.
Look guys, I will freely admit, I get pissed off when people say rascist things, even when they don't mean it. After all, some of my best friends are..... English.
But gypsy has a technical meaning. most of the thieves to who you refer aren't gypsies, and it's wrong to use the word since by implication you are suggesting that all gyspies are thieves; and all gypsies are not thieves, even tho' some are.
As I have said on one of the threads where this was discussed before- and there have been many- let's call the thieves thieves, and the beggars beggars and leave the racial epithets where they belong.
Enogh already. I don't care if this thread self combusts. I'm notlooking at it agin.
Sep 13th, 2005, 01:00 PM
#115
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I bet you will Hey, maybe these robber gypsies are just masquerading as REAL gypsies, like the Priest, The Parking Lot Attendant, Taxi Assistant etc.! I am surprised nobody took offense that MD classified them all as ITALIAN!!! bet you didnt think of that now did you?? LOL
Hey, maybe these robber gypsies are just masquerading as REAL gypsies, like the Priest, The Parking Lot Attendant, Taxi Assistant etc.! I am surprised nobody took offense that MD classified them all as ITALIAN!!! bet you didnt think of that now did you?? LOL
Sep 13th, 2005, 01:11 PM
#116
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What starts with an S and ends with an E? Shite?
I think it is a disservice for anyone to think that when they see a group of people who look like gypsies they should not be wary.
I have heard from friends and read right here they they maim their own children to get more money from begging. I think you have beggers up on a pedestal and they shouldn't be.
I think it is a disservice for anyone to think that when they see a group of people who look like gypsies they should not be wary.
I have heard from friends and read right here they they maim their own children to get more money from begging. I think you have beggers up on a pedestal and they shouldn't be.
Sep 13th, 2005, 03:37 PM
#119
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This thread has been totally ripped off. Or, as all of us racist white male pigs like to say: toally gypsied. I guess throwing this thread out around some of the readers is like taking a bottle of whiskey to a St. Patrick's Day party and expecting there to be any left over. Or...well, let's just stop there.
Thanks for the reasonable posts out there and for the over the toppers, thanks for the amusement.
Thanks for the reasonable posts out there and for the over the toppers, thanks for the amusement.
Sep 13th, 2005, 04:01 PM
#120
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MD! I resemble that remark being born and bred Irish! Could there be a grain of truth in it ... maybe (but nobody I know of course!). Am I going to have an epileptic self-righteous fit? Of course not! Some of the Susans here need to get real.
Susans: Susan Sarandons.
Susans: Susan Sarandons.
