Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves ... Italian Cons
Sep 10th, 2005, 06:28 PM
#61
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I'll get flamed again, but...
Is it possible that the word has different meanings or connotations not only in different parts of the world but even in different parts of the U.S. There are no, or very few, gypsys, Gypsys, gypsies, Gypsies or whatever the spelling is in the part of the country where I hail from. We also often heard about the G-word whenever the state fair would roll into town.
Just a thought...or perhaps the paper was just making fun of people killed by Hitler. I'm sure that's what it was now that I think about it. Drat.
Is it possible that the word has different meanings or connotations not only in different parts of the world but even in different parts of the U.S. There are no, or very few, gypsys, Gypsys, gypsies, Gypsies or whatever the spelling is in the part of the country where I hail from. We also often heard about the G-word whenever the state fair would roll into town.
Just a thought...or perhaps the paper was just making fun of people killed by Hitler. I'm sure that's what it was now that I think about it. Drat.
Sep 10th, 2005, 06:59 PM
#62
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Hi MDTravel,
sounds like you needed your asbestos undies after that post, which by the way, I enjoyed very much and thought it had useful information. I have copied it and will passing it along to my sister-in-law, The Most Trusting Person On the Planet, when she takes her very first trip out of the country to Italy in a few weeks.
I had made mention of some tips when visiting the ATM, etc, and although they have several tour books, she responded with "WHAT? I don't like the sound of that!" Totally clueless. I'm sure your tips will make her a bit more cautious (or completely paranoid).
Just to stir things up further, when we mentioned street people and crime that we saw going on in Florence, our host at the B&B said "BAH...it's the ALBANIANS!" there ya go!
Personally, I feel there's a difference between SCAMMING someone and STEALING from them. While you may feel stupid to have fallen prey to a scam, you don't as feel violated as you do when someone's hand is in your pocket!
As a travel agent I get asked these questions alot, from people travelling to various parts of the world. One of my favorite stories is from a representative of the Jamaican Tourist Board, responding to the question of crime...he said "oh, well, the average Jamaican would rather talk you out of your money than hit you over the head for it". And I found this to be true with clients I had once: they were describing their "tour" of the Botanical Gardens in Ocho Rios...I asked them if they didn't think it a bit odd that their "guide" had them bend over as he held a piece of chain link fence to get through for their tour? So, on one hand you could say they got ripped off; but on the other hand, they DID get a tour...just not an authorized one! And besides, they've got that great story now!
<leaving on Tuesday for Italy; hoping not to encounter any drama!
Melodie
sounds like you needed your asbestos undies after that post, which by the way, I enjoyed very much and thought it had useful information. I have copied it and will passing it along to my sister-in-law, The Most Trusting Person On the Planet, when she takes her very first trip out of the country to Italy in a few weeks.
I had made mention of some tips when visiting the ATM, etc, and although they have several tour books, she responded with "WHAT? I don't like the sound of that!" Totally clueless. I'm sure your tips will make her a bit more cautious (or completely paranoid).
Just to stir things up further, when we mentioned street people and crime that we saw going on in Florence, our host at the B&B said "BAH...it's the ALBANIANS!" there ya go!
Personally, I feel there's a difference between SCAMMING someone and STEALING from them. While you may feel stupid to have fallen prey to a scam, you don't as feel violated as you do when someone's hand is in your pocket!
As a travel agent I get asked these questions alot, from people travelling to various parts of the world. One of my favorite stories is from a representative of the Jamaican Tourist Board, responding to the question of crime...he said "oh, well, the average Jamaican would rather talk you out of your money than hit you over the head for it". And I found this to be true with clients I had once: they were describing their "tour" of the Botanical Gardens in Ocho Rios...I asked them if they didn't think it a bit odd that their "guide" had them bend over as he held a piece of chain link fence to get through for their tour?
So, on one hand you could say they got ripped off; but on the other hand, they DID get a tour...just not an authorized one! And besides, they've got that great story now! <leaving on Tuesday for Italy; hoping not to encounter any drama!
Melodie
Sep 10th, 2005, 07:15 PM
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Hi Melodie, have a wonderful time in Italy!!! And uh, (oh gads I guess I will be flamed) that is what everyone I know in Italy says "the Albanians". I just didn't say that in my previous post as I figured it wasn't PC. LOL.
But truly, that is what is said. And of course there is a reason for it. I will cover my head now with a helmet because I imagine someone will be upset at me.
But truly, that is what is said. And of course there is a reason for it. I will cover my head now with a helmet because I imagine someone will be upset at me.
Sep 10th, 2005, 07:41 PM
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My first introduction to a Gypsy family was in Brooklyn NY in the 70s. They were proud to be called Gypsies as I recall. Wonder if they are still there now, there were quite a few, a group of families..near Coney Island.
Sep 10th, 2005, 08:34 PM
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Park your car next to a gypsy camp in the U.K, go away for an hour, the car will have its windows smashed, belongings gone and the wheels removed and the whole vehicle resting on bricks. Guaranteed.
Of course not all gypsys will be involved in such a crime, far from it, they'll need at least one to be at the edge of the playing field/recreation ground/cemetary as a look out.
Of course not all gypsys will be involved in such a crime, far from it, they'll need at least one to be at the edge of the playing field/recreation ground/cemetary as a look out.
Sep 10th, 2005, 09:09 PM
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Henneth,
Generally gyspies/travellers will take over an unused area, rural parking area or at a pinch a local park.
We lived 1 mile away from the A30 in Hampshire and after a rash of Travellers in the area and the authorities finally got the idea that they should install bollards in rural parking areas to prevent them setting up camp.
Any sensible person wouldn't park a car anywhere near an unauthorized camp site and they are very easy to spot.
I feel your post is a tiny bit scaremongering. What are you trying to say that visitors should avoid “playing field/recreation ground/cemeteries”?
Generally gyspies/travellers will take over an unused area, rural parking area or at a pinch a local park.
We lived 1 mile away from the A30 in Hampshire and after a rash of Travellers in the area and the authorities finally got the idea that they should install bollards in rural parking areas to prevent them setting up camp.
Any sensible person wouldn't park a car anywhere near an unauthorized camp site and they are very easy to spot.
I feel your post is a tiny bit scaremongering. What are you trying to say that visitors should avoid “playing field/recreation ground/cemeteries”?
Sep 10th, 2005, 09:26 PM
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I thought cmt's post was in fun
So many posters feel they have to correct their mistakes in a second post just in case the 'spelling police' are around.
Parfym seemed to take cmt's post in good humor.
So many posters feel they have to correct their mistakes in a second post just in case the 'spelling police' are around.
Parfym seemed to take cmt's post in good humor.
Sep 11th, 2005, 12:44 AM
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What is it with your people? Of course there are gypsies. You can call a gypsy and gypsy and that's in no way offensive. But they are an ethnic group. They are not all thieves. To suggest that all thieves are gypsies is just plain wrong. What they are is thieves. I'm not trying to excuse thieving, and I'm not trying to excuse thieving gypsies. But most of those people to whom you were referring are not gypsies. Apart from anything else it's a matter of statistics.
Just out of interest, most of the "traditional" travellers in Scotland are not gypsies, although they have/had their own way of life and language and culture. Many of them were tinkers, although very few are now, and they became known as tinks, or tinkies. When I was a child, my father, who was a potato merchant used them as seasonal labour and for odd jobs, and we gave them clothes and money and bought things (mainly pegs) from them. My parents, who were NOT the most liberal people in eth world trusted them, and whilst as a child I knew they were "different" I certainly didn't think of them as lesser. Indeed when I wanted to earn by lifting tatties, it was into a tink squad my father inserted me.
But when I came to live in Aberdeen at the age of eighteen (and I had seen it in the literature of Lewis Grassick Gibbon, before that). I discovered that "tink" is a pejorative name for dirty, common people.
So, guess what? I don't use it any more; although "traveller" has none of the romance or cultural implications of the former usage.
Just out of interest, most of the "traditional" travellers in Scotland are not gypsies, although they have/had their own way of life and language and culture. Many of them were tinkers, although very few are now, and they became known as tinks, or tinkies. When I was a child, my father, who was a potato merchant used them as seasonal labour and for odd jobs, and we gave them clothes and money and bought things (mainly pegs) from them. My parents, who were NOT the most liberal people in eth world trusted them, and whilst as a child I knew they were "different" I certainly didn't think of them as lesser. Indeed when I wanted to earn by lifting tatties, it was into a tink squad my father inserted me.
But when I came to live in Aberdeen at the age of eighteen (and I had seen it in the literature of Lewis Grassick Gibbon, before that). I discovered that "tink" is a pejorative name for dirty, common people.
So, guess what? I don't use it any more; although "traveller" has none of the romance or cultural implications of the former usage.
Sep 11th, 2005, 02:58 AM
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Sheila,
Instead of referring to "you people," it would be helpful to me if you would be specific as to whom you are referring.
That way, I could identify who the person or persons were who said on this thread that there are no gypsies. As it is, I don't find anyone saying that. What I did find were some posters who claimed, without attribution, that the proper term to refer to them is "Romanies," or some form thereof. I did find some posters who said, perhaps misspeaking, that there were no gypsies in the US. But I don't find that anyone said there are no gypsies.
Perhaps you could also point me toward the person or persons who said that all thieves are gypsies? I don't find even the most intemperate posters here saying such a thing.
Likewise, you say, "But most of those people to whom you were referring are not gypsies. Apart from anything else it's a matter of statistics." Pardon me, but what the he__ are you talking about? Which people are referring to whom? And how do you know the persons they are referring to are not gypsies?
If you are talking about what Kenneth said, then I'd appreciate it if you would address your remarks to his portion of the post and be specific in your disagreement.
Your discussion of the "Tinks" was interesting and led me to what appears to be a fairly respectable website of an organization which calls itself "The Gypsy Lore Society," which includes a description of Irish and Scottish Travelers, noting "The literature also refers to this group as Irish Traders or, sometimes, <u>Tinkers</u>. Their ethnic language is referred to in the literature as Irish Traveler Cant." That site notes that the Irish and Scottish Travelers (or Tinkers) don't refer to themselves as gysies.
As you may gather, your post caused me to levitate briefly. However, as maddening as some of the contributions to this thread have been, they did inspire me to go out on the net and learn a whole lot more than I knew before I started.
Events frequently compel me to take a fresh look at my attitudes, and I am always on the look out for bigoted attitudes in myself, whether it's in connection with racism or religion or sexuality. Wouldn't the world be a nicer place if we all looked inside ourselves before pointing fingers at others?
Instead of referring to "you people," it would be helpful to me if you would be specific as to whom you are referring.
That way, I could identify who the person or persons were who said on this thread that there are no gypsies. As it is, I don't find anyone saying that. What I did find were some posters who claimed, without attribution, that the proper term to refer to them is "Romanies," or some form thereof. I did find some posters who said, perhaps misspeaking, that there were no gypsies in the US. But I don't find that anyone said there are no gypsies.
Perhaps you could also point me toward the person or persons who said that all thieves are gypsies? I don't find even the most intemperate posters here saying such a thing.
Likewise, you say, "But most of those people to whom you were referring are not gypsies. Apart from anything else it's a matter of statistics." Pardon me, but what the he__ are you talking about? Which people are referring to whom? And how do you know the persons they are referring to are not gypsies?
If you are talking about what Kenneth said, then I'd appreciate it if you would address your remarks to his portion of the post and be specific in your disagreement.
Your discussion of the "Tinks" was interesting and led me to what appears to be a fairly respectable website of an organization which calls itself "The Gypsy Lore Society," which includes a description of Irish and Scottish Travelers, noting "The literature also refers to this group as Irish Traders or, sometimes, <u>Tinkers</u>. Their ethnic language is referred to in the literature as Irish Traveler Cant." That site notes that the Irish and Scottish Travelers (or Tinkers) don't refer to themselves as gysies.
As you may gather, your post caused me to levitate briefly. However, as maddening as some of the contributions to this thread have been, they did inspire me to go out on the net and learn a whole lot more than I knew before I started.
Events frequently compel me to take a fresh look at my attitudes, and I am always on the look out for bigoted attitudes in myself, whether it's in connection with racism or religion or sexuality. Wouldn't the world be a nicer place if we all looked inside ourselves before pointing fingers at others?
Sep 11th, 2005, 03:24 AM
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The one thing I got from this thread:
Maybe there IS such a thing as being <i>too</i> aware.
The other thing I got:
A lack of common sense still thrives and most people prefer living in a black and white world where dialogue has no color.
Living a big-city girl-life for over two decades does have a way of making one street smart by default. All it takes is one mugging or one blatant attempt at rip-off to know you don't ever want to experience that again.
The number one rule of survival in NYC is "guard up" and my "Dust-Off" spray lens cleaner has served me well through the many years I've visited Rome. (Breath spray works, too, especially if you're accosted shortly after eating much garlic.)
But at least half of the (American) travelers to Europe don't hail from big, bad cities, never heard of "Dust-Off," and they haven't a clue how to deal with poor, desperate people (mostly illegal residents) who survive by preying on others.
The major benefit to mdtravel's creative travel "warning" is newbies (who do research) will have the opportunity to get an education in street smarts. I predict this will help many more people than it will offend. Protecting yourself from being victimized is a good thing.
I'm all for profiling in preventing and solving crimes. It makes perfect sense to me. If a would-be suspect is tall, blonde, and with a great pair of legs, feel free to pull me aside and question me. Abuse should never be tolerated.
I'm all for protecting the meek and innocent, especially if they're poor and desperate. No one should ever be without hope.
The pc "noise" on this thread deserves a good toilet flush.
Maybe there IS such a thing as being <i>too</i> aware.
The other thing I got:
A lack of common sense still thrives and most people prefer living in a black and white world where dialogue has no color.
Living a big-city girl-life for over two decades does have a way of making one street smart by default. All it takes is one mugging or one blatant attempt at rip-off to know you don't ever want to experience that again.
The number one rule of survival in NYC is "guard up" and my "Dust-Off" spray lens cleaner has served me well through the many years I've visited Rome. (Breath spray works, too, especially if you're accosted shortly after eating much garlic.)
But at least half of the (American) travelers to Europe don't hail from big, bad cities, never heard of "Dust-Off," and they haven't a clue how to deal with poor, desperate people (mostly illegal residents) who survive by preying on others.
The major benefit to mdtravel's creative travel "warning" is newbies (who do research) will have the opportunity to get an education in street smarts. I predict this will help many more people than it will offend. Protecting yourself from being victimized is a good thing.
I'm all for profiling in preventing and solving crimes. It makes perfect sense to me. If a would-be suspect is tall, blonde, and with a great pair of legs, feel free to pull me aside and question me. Abuse should never be tolerated.
I'm all for protecting the meek and innocent, especially if they're poor and desperate. No one should ever be without hope.
The pc "noise" on this thread deserves a good toilet flush.
Sep 11th, 2005, 04:02 AM
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Mary Fran, life's too short for me to parse the thread, but there's clearly been a lot of dicussion about what you call a gypsy. That is certainly not my issue. My issue is what you call a thief.
I fear old mdtraveller is being painted FAR worse than he or she intended, but you will find the basic reference to scammers and thieves as gypsies (OK, not ALL scammers and thieves; but I must be allowed a wee bit of licence here. The problem I have is with the use of "gypsy" interchangeably with "thief". Frankly, I don't care who does it, Brits, other Europeans or Americans, it's just plain wrong.
The people that mdtravller was referring to (and I admit I'm making an assumption because I've seen them too), and that MANY others refer to constantly as gypsies CAN'T all be gyspsies, because, added to the gypsies who are officially accounted for, there just aren't that many gypsies. DON'T make me do the research for the numbers to support that, again, please. I have done it before I know of what I speak.
In a perverse way I agree with most of what NYC says, but I do fall out in the last sentence. I have no problem with the profiling, just the labelling.
I fear old mdtraveller is being painted FAR worse than he or she intended, but you will find the basic reference to scammers and thieves as gypsies (OK, not ALL scammers and thieves; but I must be allowed a wee bit of licence here. The problem I have is with the use of "gypsy" interchangeably with "thief". Frankly, I don't care who does it, Brits, other Europeans or Americans, it's just plain wrong.
The people that mdtravller was referring to (and I admit I'm making an assumption because I've seen them too), and that MANY others refer to constantly as gypsies CAN'T all be gyspsies, because, added to the gypsies who are officially accounted for, there just aren't that many gypsies. DON'T make me do the research for the numbers to support that, again, please
. I have done it before I know of what I speak.In a perverse way I agree with most of what NYC says, but I do fall out in the last sentence. I have no problem with the profiling, just the labelling.
Sep 11th, 2005, 04:08 AM
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I agree PRECISELY with what Sheila said here:
<<but there's clearly been a lot of dicussion about what you call a gypsy. That is certainly not my issue. My issue is what you call a thief.
I fear old mdtraveller is being painted FAR worse than he or she intended, but you will find the basic reference to scammers and thieves as gypsies (OK, not ALL scammers and thieves; but I must be allowed a wee bit of licence here. The problem I have is with the use of "gypsy" interchangeably with "thief". Frankly, I don't care who does it, Brits, other Europeans or Americans, it's just plain wrong.>>
<<but there's clearly been a lot of dicussion about what you call a gypsy. That is certainly not my issue. My issue is what you call a thief.
I fear old mdtraveller is being painted FAR worse than he or she intended, but you will find the basic reference to scammers and thieves as gypsies (OK, not ALL scammers and thieves; but I must be allowed a wee bit of licence here. The problem I have is with the use of "gypsy" interchangeably with "thief". Frankly, I don't care who does it, Brits, other Europeans or Americans, it's just plain wrong.>>
Sep 11th, 2005, 06:31 AM
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I think it is time for thinking people to retire their use of the term "PC". To refer to the criticism of the use of racial or ethnic slurs as "PC" is an insult. This is a travel board that needs to respect differences among people and not think it is OK to scapegoat *any* group with racist labels, no matter who may be using them....
By all means, use your eyes and ears to watch your possessions and safety while traveling, but using a racist label or category while doing so is *not* a necessary part of that carefulness.
By all means, use your eyes and ears to watch your possessions and safety while traveling, but using a racist label or category while doing so is *not* a necessary part of that carefulness.
