morgiesmom

Hi-
I'm taking my daughter and her best friend to Paris and Italy for 16 days in June 08'. (They will be 17 & 18). I asked some questions a few months ago and have been getting it together ever since. (I think I was intimidated at first, I'm over it.) Here is my first set of questions.

We leave Chicago 6/13, arrive Paris 6/14. Staying at the Hotel Bonaparte' for 2 nights. Have already reserved Michael Cosmo as our guide. Leaving Paris on the night train to Milan on 6/16 and then on to Venice. I'm going for a sleeper car.

We're booked in Venice 6/17/08 - 6/21/08. I want to take the girls to Milan to see the Dumo and The Last Supper, but no other real plans. DD wants to see the high end shops, (just looking folks!) but I think Paris or Florence might be better for that.

Question #1 : Should I shave off a day in Venice and spend 1 night in Milan and then on to Venice for 3 nights, or keep the plans as they are and do a day trip back to Milan from Venice?

Also, I have reservations at Hotel Residenza Cannaregio, which is outside of Venice a bit. But, it's quieter than in town and has a suite with a canal view. Now I'm having 2'nd thoughts and wondering if maybe I should change that and stay closer in. I'm not doubting the hotel itself, just location.

So question #2 is: Stay in the heart of things or out? If in, any suggestions?

Please excuse my stupidity for the next question, but what is the difference between Rail Europe and ES Trains? Isn't ES Eurostar?

I know we want the Paris-Italy passes and that they can't be purchased before Dec., and sleeper car reservations aren't available till 90 days before departure. This much I do know.

We also intend to spend 4 nights in Florence and 5 nights in Rome. Looking at taking side trips by train from those locations is where I'm getting confused. But more about that next time. I don't want to write a book.

Thank You so much for taking the time to answer a complete strangers questions.

MM.

isabel

First, it's great that you are taking your daughter to Europe at that age. I first took my daughter when she was 16 and now she is soooo hooked (two study abroads in college and now planning to live in France for a year - she's 23 now, plus several trips with me just for vacations).

Re your itinerary - you only have 2 days in Paris versus about 2 weeks in Italy - am I reading that right? If so you might want to consider shaving a day off each Italy destination and staying at least 4 in Paris. That's really a bare minimum in my mind, and while you could spend months in Italy, with two weeks you can "afford" to take a couple of days from that.

Second, if you want to see things in Milan do it while you are there, don't waste all that time on the train backtracking.

Third - I don't know where that hotel in Venice is, but if it's IN venice it will be fine, even if it's not right near San Marco (or whatever you use to define the "center" of things). But if it's on the mainland then definitly switch - you want to be IN Venice. But the actual city of Venice is not that big so even the "edges" won't be too far from anything.

You have 5 nights in Venice. A wonderful place but maybe more time than need on a trip of only a little over 2 weeks total.

Florence is great as a base for some day trips to Tuscan towns. I assume you will not have a car at all on this trip. But from Florence you can easily do day trips to Siena, Lucca, Pisa, etc.

From Rome a good day trip would be Orvieto, about an hour by train.

But my suggestion would be to stop in Milan on the way to Venice (maybe not even overnight), take two days off Venice and one or two off Rome and add them to Paris. Then I think you'd have a fabulous trip.

Dejais

I definitely agree with Isabel. Having been to all of the places you mentioned and done them pretty much the same way (via train), from my experience I would tell you the following:

1. Spend more time in Paris. There is a lot to see and the first day is pretty much a bust due to jet lag. I would spend the most time in Paris and Rome since they have the most to see IMO and also since they are your beginning/ending points.

2. Since you don't have major plans for Milan, I would plan to arrive there in the morning and spend the day there, then head on to Venice. Whenever we plan a day in a city on our way to someplace else we seem to accomplish a lot more because with limited time you spend your time more wisely.

3. Most definitely, stay IN Venice. I looked up the hotel you booked and it is in Venice. You will be a distance from St Mark's and the Rialto Bridge but if you don't mind walking, you should be fine. If it was me, I would want to stay closer, but perhaps other Fodorites can comment on this area. We always stay at Locanda Orseolo, a B&B right off St Mark's Square. It has an impeccable reputation and is worth every penny. Bruno, Barbara, and Matteo will make you feel so welcome and are helpful in every way. Website is www.locandaorseolo.com

4. A suggestion for your rail tickets...when we planned our Italy trip, Trenitalia was having a promotion but one that was only available in Italy. (I guess you could not purchase it online.) After contacting the Venice hotel we were staying at, the manager offered to purchase the tickets for us (Venice-Rome) and charge us for them when we arrived. Perhaps if you have correspondence with your Paris hotel, they can help you book your sleeper ahead of time and save you some money. Of course, you would not be able to get them now, I just mean as your trip gets closer.

5. Since this sounds like your first trip with the girls, I would not get so wound up planning side trips. There is SO much to see in the great cities you chose. You will have plenty to do!

Lastly, can you give a website address or any info on Michael Cosmo? I will be in Paris again in the Spring and would love to know about his services.

Good luck with your planning!

kybourbon

I think you should add a day to Paris (at least) and fly from Paris Orly to Milan on EasyJet (a budget airline). Forget the overnight train and the train pass. Trains are cheap in Italy and a pass is rarely cost effective.

RailEurope is a broker that sells rail passes to make money. ES (Italian Eurostar) is the name of the faster trains in Italy and has nothing to do with Rail Europe. An ES train from Milan to Venice is only 27E per person. It's hard to advise without seeing your entire itinerary.

There are high-end stores in Venice, Paris, Rome. Is there a particular store she wants to see? The Last Supper is reservations only.

ira

Hi M,

16 days and only 2 nights in Paris????!!!!

IMO Paris is the best part of your trip.

You could take 1 night from each of your Italy cities without being rushed.

The train gets to Milan at 05:38, you will have plenty of time in Milan.
No need to double back. Leave your luggage at the station, see the town for the day, go on to Venice.

Your hotel is IN Venice, up by the Misericordia. You can walk to the seawall to see the lagoon. You are not far from the Ghetto ares, which will be good for the young ladies to visit.

>what is the difference between Rail Europe and ES Trains? Isn't ES Eurostar?<

Raileurope is a marketing group that sells tickets to North America.

The Italian Eurostar trains (ES*) are the high speed ones. They are not the Eurostar that goes between London and Paris.

>I know we want the Paris-Italy passes ...<

NO YOU DON'T.

Train travel in Italy is very cheap. Both Italy and France offer discount fares.

The Italian train system is at www.trenitalia.com/en/index.html
Buy your tickets here.

If you do your itinerary in reverse - fly into Rome and out of Paris - you can get Smart Price tickets in a 4-bunk sleeper for only 60E pp from Venice or Milan.

OTOH, www.voyages-sncf.com offers 1cl PREMS in a 4 bunk sleeper for 55E from Paris to Milan.

Enjoy your visit.

ellenem

I agree that Paris deserves more time, and also that you should check individual ticket prices before buying a pass.

YOu r hotel is a bit removed, but still in Venice proper, so that's good. Another hotel in Venice that might work for you:

http://www.alpontemocenigo.com/en/index.htm

It's charming, a little closer to the action but still in a calm area, and very reasonably priced for Venice. Check the excellent reviews on Tripadvisor.com.

cheryllj

Absolutely you need way more time in Paris. If it were up to me, I'd skip Milan altogether and spend as much time in Paris as possible, a minimum of 3-4 days.

Paris, Venice, Florence, and Rome is more than enough for 16 days, and most on this board would say it's too much already.

Your hotel is IN Venice, although not right in the heart of the "action," which would be near Piazza San Marco or the Rialto. The girls would probably enjoy being closer in the heart of things, and there are many good choices that won't break the bank mentioned above, but as long as you are in Venice proper, you aren't that far out.

janisj

ditto to most everything said before. I'd even go farther and say that if you can't spend more time in Paris - I'd skip it altogether. Day 1 is really just spent getting out of CDG, to your hotel, checking in, sort of getting your bearings w/ a bit od gawking at some sites, an early dinner and crashing early. so you really only have 1+ days free for Paris.

I'd personally spend at least 4 nights in Paris. If Milan is a must then I agree - easyJet to Milan in the a.m. and then on to Venice in the late afternoon/evening. If Milan can be axed -- then fly Paris to Venice.

PalenQ

<know we want the Paris-Italy passes and that they can't be purchased before Dec., and sleeper car reservations aren't available till 90 days before departure.>

you have to validate the France-Italy flexipass within six months after issue and then can use it for the two month validity period.

the only reason to buy it that far in advance is to avoid a price increase as you will be guaranteed the old price for six months afterward

that said this year the Eurail folks - though called France-Italy pass it's really a Eurail France-Italy pass - anyway pass prices are fluctuating every few weeks - up a bit or down a bit because for the first time the price is based in euros and converted to $

previously dollar prices were set and virtually guaranteed for the whole year - thus with exchange rates could be more a bargain or less and since prices were adjusted - always up it seems every Jan 1 you could possibly save money by buying before then

but that is all mute now. For passes i always refer folks to www.budgeteuropetravel.com as this is the only source i know with an 800# where you can question experts on passes or train travel without obligation - there may be others if so i'd like to know about that unusual service; on the site request their free European Planning & Rail guide that will answer most of your questions posed here - a great primer on using European trains. That said i'm not sure a pass is cost effective for you if you want to go the online discounted fare route via www.trenitalia.com or www.voyages-sncf.com - for flexibility and arranging trains as you go along however the pass would probably be a good deal. Part of the problem with a pass in Italy is that you still have to pay 15 euros each time you ride the Eurostar Italia high-speed trains that most do take.

morgiesmom

I'm sorry I didn't reply right away, my computer is in the shop and I'm sharing my teenage daughters. (oh joy!) I'm following your advice (pretty much everone who responded!) and am in the midst of changing my plans to 4 days in Paris as suggested. I've contacted the hotels mentioned to me and I'm waiting for responses.

Dejais - Michaeln Osman was recommended by Trip Advisor, Slow Travel and Rick Steeves. If you google "Michael Osman, Paris Find" he was the 2'd paragraph. (aol.hometown., etc.)

Currently I'm at 4 nights Paris, 3 Venice, 4 Florence, and 5 Rome.

Regarding Rome - I know 5 nights might seem too much. The reason behind this is I was able to use Points at the Sheraton Roma Conference Center. (I was going to book 4 nights, then I found out the 5'th night was free. OK. Fine, book me and I'll figure out the details later.) Yes, it's (as I remember, 4-6 miles out of the center of Rome and between the airport and town. BUT, it offers a FREE shuttle every day to town, (I believe every hour) a shuttle to the airport (for a fee), they will book guides if you desire (no desire now, but nice to know there is that option.) restaurants, room service, a lounge, a swimming pool, internet service, etc. This is towards the end of the trip and by then an afternoon relaxing at the pool with a drink doesn't sound half bad. (Remember, I'm chaperoning two girls, 17 & 18 years old. They're best friends and each others partner in crime. They have great personalities, are funny, energetic, creative, devious, pretty, and beyond excited. They've always been great girls, don't get me wrong, but I don't think now is exactly the time for me to slack off my motherly duties. I'm not deluding myself that this is going to be a complete walk in the park.

Back to the hotel. I was able to book 5 nights for a total of $140, w/everything. I will admit, that got my complete attention! But, I honestly believe we'll be happy here. Also, with what we saved here I thought possibly we would just leave our stuff in the rooms one day, pack an overnighter, and take the train to Sorrento and then Pompei, or wherever. Possibly even Capri. (I want to check with the girls to see what they might be interested in.) Any suggestions?

So although I'm stating 5 nights in Rome, I'm assuming we'll go somewhere.

I know I'm in the beginning of my planning, I'm just working on locations and hotels right now. Thanks for taking the time to help me. I'm printing your suggestions out, and will consult with it and you again.

Sincerely,
MM

Seamus

Agree with all previous suggestions. Definitely rethink the rail passes. For several years now they offer little advantage - and may actually cost more than - point to point tickets, especially when you factor in the supplements you pay for overnight sleeper or high speed trains.
If I were planning this I' skip Milan but if I had to include all these cities I'd try for something like:
Paris 6/14-20 (and would look for an apartment)
6/20 fly to Milan in the AM, do a city tour then continue on to Venice by train (ES lvs ~1800, ar ~2015)
Venice 6/20 PM- 6/22 PM
6/22 PM train to Florence (lv ~1830, ~ 3hours)
6/22 evening - 6/26 AM Florence
6/26 AM train to Rome (lv ~8 am arrives Rome ~10am on ES train)
The Rome deal is great. Are you flying home from Rome?

ira

Hi M,

>Regarding Rome - I know 5 nights might seem too much.

Not at all. Lots of folks here recommend a week for Rome.

Apres_Londee

>>>Currently I'm at 4 nights Paris, 3 Venice, 4 Florence, and 5 Rome<<<

I think that sounds just right. I would recommend spending your entire 4 days in Paris and 3 days in Venice with no daytrips.

If you wanted to take a daytrip from Florence, Siena is a wonderful town and and an easy 1-hour bus ride away. Or, an afternoon in Fiesole is a nice way to get out of the city and spend some time wandering outside. There is a good archeological museum with the ruins of a roman theater; it's a wonderful set-up, like a garden of ruins with views of the rolling Tuscan countryside. However, you could also easily fill your 4 days with sights in Florence alone.

5 days is definately *not* too long for Rome, I wouldn't worry about taking an overnight trip anywhere else. Two very popular daytrips are Ostica Antica (ruins of a city similar to Pompeii) and Orvieto (a hill town).

There is so much to see in all four cities, I would recommend keeping your itinerary simple as possible to allow yourself to enjoy what they have to offer. Your daughter and her friend are very lucky

seafox

Michael Osman can be reached at:
[email protected]

Definatly consider using him as a guide in Paris. He is fairly priced and he will ensure you and the girls see things that interest you,

morgiesmom

Seamus - yes, we're flying home from Rome. Our flight is Rome to Heathrow (British Airways) and Heathrow to O'hare via AA. These were mileage tickets and I couldn't get non-stop unless we went in July. Soooo... On the upside, we're booked in First Class on 3 flights and Business on one. I don't know if the girls have served enough time in coach to be deserving of this perk, but alas, they're hanging on my coat-tails! (tightly I might add!)

Seafox- Yes, Michael Osman is BOOKED. Interesting isn't it, I wasn't completely sure of everywhere we were going, but by God I managed to nail down a well recommended guide to show us around when we got there! Actually, even before I had all our places to sleep! More LOL.

Priorities.

I'll check back for more suggestions, and I know I'll have more questions.

For example, has anyone attended a cooking class? Did you like it? Was it helpful when you were HOME? That's an Italy goal.

I understand some department stores host a fashion show during the week occasionally. Does anyone have any information on that?

I definetly want the DD's to see Versailles. I loved it. Should I book a tour thru the internet in advance, (and there is no shortage) or are we better getting there ourselves and then paying and joining whatever tours is offered?

Thanks again.
Morgansmom Robin

teenstravelinfam

Just want to reiterate what others have said, that 5 days in Rome is definitely not too much. I wouldn't worry too much about planning a daytrip there will be so much to see and do there and shopping in Rome is a must, particularly for teenage girls.

Our family did a cooking class when we were in Lerici on the Ligurian coast. It was a ton of fun - just our family of 4. There is one particular fish recipe we really enjoy eating at home.

In Paris the Galleries Lafayette does a Fashion show, I believe on Friday afternoons. You can google them to confirm that. In Paris there is a Fashion Museum called the Musee Galliera. It only has exhibits sometimes. While we were there they had an interesting exhibit about fashion shows that my daughter and I really enjoyed.

If the girls are really into fashion take them to Diedre Ludot. A very famous vintage couture shop - sold dresses to the likes of Reese Witherpoon, Demi Moore and Nicole Kidman. Actually Michael Osman took us there.

Dejais

MM...Thanks for the reply. I have already booked Michael Osman. Your first post said Michael "Cosmo" so I was confused. I figured you meant Osman, but wanted to doublecheck.

Regarding fashion shows. Printemps does shows on Tuesday mornings at 10am on the 7th floor of ‘Le Printemps de la Mode’.

I would also second the opinion that you should look into an apartment for Paris. Many can be had for less than a week. This could save you a bit of money and allow you more space and the ability to have breakfast at home. With all of the great patisseries and boulangeries, breakfast at home can be wonderful.

A good place to start would be vrbo.com. I am using http://www.parisholidayapts.com/ in April. If you search on this site for apartment rentals I am sure you will find more than you ever wished for.

Also, I personally think taking a Hop On/Hop Off bus the first day in Paris will help acclimate you to the city and give you a great overview. There are two you can find all over the city but a good starting place can be the Eiffel Tower. Look for the red bus or the green bus. Website info for both:

http://www.paris-opentour.com/
http://www.carsrouges.com/uk/index.html

As for Rome, I would not worry about side trips. There is alot to see and do in Rome itself and I think you will be plenty busy. Congrats on your scoring of the hotel. Since it has a shuttle, I think the location should be fine and the advantage of having the pool will be nice.

I would like to give one serious piece of advice though. You mention the girls and how great they are. I would research on this site for "gypsies" and "scams" in Rome and highlight the important stuff and make the girls aware of this. These things are real and my husband and I have experienced and witnessed some of them. No matter how saavy you think you are, they will spot you and try to con you. Girls that age, no matter how mature they seem, can be easily distracted and duped. Just educate them and your self before you go. Better to be on your toes than not to know at all.

My DH thought he was smarter than anyone and would not listen. He was pickpocketed and never knew it. The damage to his ego ruined an entire day of our trip. Making sure the girls are safe includes making sure they are aware of their surroundings as well.

Lastly, train travel can be purchased at the station when you are leaving. If you buy ahead, you will have to stick to your plans. If you buy as you go, you will have more flexibility. I don't believe you will use the train enough to warrant buying passes.

Sorry, one more thing. Check into www.easyjet.com for service from Paris to Venice. It is fairly inexpensive. However, when we were going from Venice to Capri, we opted for the overnight train since we were not losing any day time and could cut a night at a hotel from our budget. Weigh the time and cost after you do your research. Basic info I could find: The plane to Venice is apprx. 41E and leaves CDG at 11:15am. Flight is 1 1/2 hrs.

Good luck!

PalenQ

Though if you've never taken an overnight train in Europe you and especially the teens could love it and be one of the most memorably aspects of their trip.

And these Artesia Italy-France night trains are very comfy.

I took one last Jan Florence-Paris and all was great - even arriving in Paris around 8am.

Dejais

PalenQ...I agree. I would always opt for the train. It is a great way to travel and not something Americans get to do very often.

Ninkette

We stayed at this B&B in Venice and really enjoyed it. Its not on a canal but is close to the Rialto bridge. They serve a nice breakfast in their courtyard. I believe they offer rooms that are triples.

http://www.corte1321.com