hal

Yes, Interested Mom-take the kids to a jazz club ..the French need a reason to think Americans are demented.

Capo

Can any French people -- or non-French people living in France -- address Hal's comment? Would French parents never take their children to a jazz club? Would they feel that any parents who did were "demented"? Thanks. <BR>

sandrine

I would like to address Hal's comment- having lived in Paris for many years, and in New York City, there is not such a difference in the way American parents and French parents think- <BR>In Paris-we do not take the children with us to dinner/nightclubs/evening social events as much as the Americans..we like to keep these more adult.But in NY I have never witnessed parents bringing young children under 12 to jazz clubs, or other such venues. Besides the no minors rules, it is smokey,crowded,and other people without children, would like to have somewhere to go that is child free.There are restaurants in Paris that feel the same way-keep the little ones at home and let the adults enjoy an evening without them.I do not know about demented, but it might be foolish or inconsiderate..

al

Capo-I was in France when in school,I went to plenty of clubs and bars.Never did I see young kids in them.European bars are dark,smokey -they have minors laws also.I think demented is as good a word as any,does crazy,stupid or clueless fit the bill better?

Mike

Just wanted to say thanks. I posted my original message on 10/20 and received a number of great suggestions. I'm really looking forward to my trip...

mia

Mike-I wish you and your wife a wonderful time in Paris..it is my current favorite city, the food,the people,the city,the music,the art~~~no matter what you do it will be special.And the French love jazz so much, you will have so many choices for enjoying it, we liked the Hotel Villa on rue Jacob~Bon Voyage~

Interested Mom

My goodness, I certainly never intended to start a debate about "demented" (or crazy, stupid, or clueless) Americans, or inconsiderate parents. I <BR>truly didn't know if "Jazz clubs" = "Night clubs". I appreciate the information, (though not the name-calling), and will visit the Jazz clubs of Paris sans les enfants. <BR>Merci

xxx

I think Interested Mom is not accustomed to going out in big cities, maybe where she is from ,they take the kids to bars,she will learn through experience and traveling, give her a break!

Capo

Interested Mom, I thought David Applefield did a nice job of answering the parent's question about taking his 8 year old son to nightclubs, without resorting to the mean-spirited name-calling which seems to be favored on this thread. <BR> <BR>

Not so Interested Anymore Mom

I agree, Capo. A thoughtful response from another parent who obviously has children interested in more than Disneyland (which we will not be visiting, btw) XXX, although I appreciate you giving me "a break", I live in a very large city in the US, have traveled to Europe before (UK,France,Italy), but never with children (and last time I was in Paris, I wasn't really paying attention to where children were or were not). I don't take the children to night clubs here in the states, but they did enjoy some wonderful jazz in some small clubs in New Orleans on a recent trip. I was just looking for a simple oui, ou non. <BR>Merci, et au revoir.

Capo

Interested Mom, this reminds me of another thread on here a while ago where the issue came up of parents doing risky activities, like mountain-climbing. Many people were outraged that parents would choose to do something like this and it seems to me that almost nothing arouses ire, indignation, and contempt as much as parents who do something that other parents (and perhaps some non-parents) don't think they should be doing.

justthinking

Capo-I think that this is more of a reaction of parents/non-parents thinking "are you kidding!? who would take small children to a Parisian night club?"- you don't have to be a parent to have an idea of what is appropriate when taking children on trips, don't most people just know that you don't take 7 & 10 year olds to bars/clubs? You always seem to be nice and a peacemaker on these threads, and I appreciate that, but there is such a thing as common sense and that lack in Interested Moms question seems to have set off the "ire". And yes you are quite right in saying that nothing upsets people more than seeing other people be bad parents, in their eyes. Although this case is hardly a matter of children being in danger of being orphaned while parents do something dangerous for fun, this seems to be more of a case of irritation that this parent can't figure this out for herself.

just thinking too

I think this parent was attempting to figure it out by asking an honest question on what she hoped would be a knowledgable forum. While I don't have kids myself, I am a music lover, and have enjoyed watching kids appreciate live bands in all different kinds of places -mostly in the afternoon/evening hours. Maybe Interested Mom was wondering if jazz clubs in Paris were these kind of places. Could we cut her some slack, folks? She has already said she doesn't take her kids to night clubs. Give her a little credit.

Capo

justthinking, thanks, I appreciate your comments. <BR> <BR>Interested Mom said that her sons enjoyed some wonderful jazz in some small clubs in New Orleans on a recent trip, which is why she was interested in maybe doing the same in Paris. Now, perhaps these small clubs in New Orleans did not serve alcohol and were not smoky, but I don't know. <BR> <BR>I'm not sure if it's the possibility of the kids being around alcohol, or merely the fact that they'd be in a music club with other adults, that seems to draw the ire of others. <BR> <BR>I have no idea what the rules are in France regarding children being in places where alcohol is served, but I'd be curious to know what they are. I'd like to say more but will reserve comment until I know what French laws are. Does anyone know? <BR>

mimi taylor

Capo, I ave not seen children in any of the jazz clubs, really too smokey as anyone who has been to Paris knows. We left places where it was so heavy, my eyes smarted. But, there is no law for children that forbids from going where drinks are served, so you see children at dinner all the time, and often given a glass of wine. There may be coffee clubs that play jazz, have you looked into that Capo?

Capo

Thanks Mimi. I did find a website that said the drinking age in France (and Spain) is 16, but it didn't mention anything about whether children under that age are allowed in places were alcohol is served. <BR> <BR>Is what you said only true for places where meals are served, or would children under 16 in France be allowed into a place like a music club as long as they were accompanied by their parents?

info

The legal drinking age in France is 18.

Surlok

Not really, Capo, but I know, because I have two French friends that are teachers, that the educational rules are very strict in French schools or licées, as are the parents' rules in general. <BR> <BR>I don't think, although it's my point of view, and my own lax Brazilian standards, that, for example, a matinée in the Caveau (if there is a matinée, what I don't know) would be, by any means, inappropriate to kids. Same as Mom does, I took my kids (when they were still kids) to a jazz club in Rio, where adults were drinking alcohol, and it was never a problem. I haven't seen anyone drinking heavily in the jazz clubs, the attendance ranged from late teens, I'd say, to 60 something, especially in the Caveau, and everybody was having a good time, listening to the band playing and dancing. However, since each culture has it own rules, I don't really know. <BR> <BR>Surlok <BR> <BR>

Capo

Thanks for the correction. Here's the website I found the info on. If you're right about it being 18, the author must not have done his homework. <BR> <BR>http://www.inlandempireonline.com/de...eendrink.shtml <BR> <BR>The website below, dated March 1998, says 16 for France, so it must have been raised since then. <BR> <BR>http://www.icap.org/publications/report4.html <BR> <BR>Interesting, however, I just noticed on the paris-anglo.com website below that it says the drinking age in France is 16, and I'd think that website would be up-to-date, so can you point me to an authoritative site that says it's 18? Thanks. <BR> <BR>http://www.paris-anglo.com/guide/dai.../drinking.html

Capo

Thanks, Surlok. If I had kids who loved music, and the laws of whatever country we were vacationing in permitted them to be in music clubs where alcohol was served, I'd do the same as you (and would surely be lambasted by irate people who would see me as demented, crazy, stupid, clueless, and irresponsible. :^)