tea4two

Desperately needing advice...
My friend and I are traveling to Europe, April 27, for approximately 3weeks... we are planning on arriving in London, then going to Paris, Switzerland, maybe Germany, then going to Italy starting at the top and ending our trip in Rome.

We are making our plans as we go, but one thing we have decided to use is the rail system. We have been looking at the Global Rail supersaver and from reading the responses it sounds like the right thing. But I am confused over whether we have to reserve seats, the idea is to hop on and off, with some of those rides being an overnight trip.

The other thing I do not understand with this pass, is what trains are included?
Would this be the best way to see and travel in Europe? Any help would be appreciated

spaarne

First off I think you are trying too much for 3 weeks. Do half of your dream this time and go back later for the other half.

To learn about European trains look at http://tinyurl.com/eym5b. Also call B.E.T.S and ask for their train planning guide. It is excellent and free. Phone 800.441.2387.

If you are a party animal I suggest being in Amsterdam on April 30 for Queen's Day. And then visit the tulips at Keukenhof. Spectacular.

<i>But I am confused over whether we have to reserve seats, the idea is to hop on and off, with some of those rides being an overnight trip.</i>
Some trains require reservations and others do not. You can hop on/off of the trains which do not require seat reservation. On overnight trains you reserve a bed before you get on board. You don't hop on/off of overnight trains.

kybourbon

Many of the faster trains require seat reservations which will add to the price of a pass.

Europe has many budget airlines which can be cheaper than a rail pass. Try www.whichbudget.com or www.skyscanner.net.

To see if you really need a pass, enter your itinerary on www.railsaver.com and click "only if a pass saves me money". This isn't entirely accurate, but will give you a rough idea.

nytraveler

Agree you need to cut yuor itinerary in half to actualy see anything. Have yuo looked at 1) a map - with distances and 2) a train schedule? These are not 1 hour trips. Some are very lengthy.

Check our bahn.de for the most accurate listing of train schedules (but ignore prices, which are only for Germany) to see how much of your time would be spent just sitting on a train versus actually seeing/doing anything.

MFNYC

I would do 4-5 full days each in London and Paris and then the remainder (about 10 days) in Rome and 1 maybe other place in Italy (Florence or Venice).

Does the 3 weeks including flying days. You lose a couple of days right there.

London, Paris and Rome each deserve at least 4 full days as would any other major city. You can easily spend a week in any of them and keep quite busy. If you add in flying days and travelling between each city, your 12 days turns into about 16.

bettyloo

Rick Steves website has a rail map of Europe that shows the distance, time and approximate cost between major cities. It may be helpful in planning. Also another vote for trimming down your plans, I did a similar trip including all the places you mentioned plus Amsterdam. I was there for 8 weeks and that was not enough time for all those places.

It easy to underestimate how much time and energy it takes to travel between places.

tea4two

Thank you to everyone all your comments are valid. We have looked at maps some of them with Rick Steeves, the train schedule we were trying to track down.

Any comments if the rail pass would be a valuable tool, what I mean is it user friendly?

ira

HI tea,

With only 3 weeks, London, Paris and Rome should take up all of your time.
If you do that, you needn't bother with trains.

You can take www.eurostar.com from London to Paris. (Round trip day fares are usually the cheapest.)

See www.whichbudget.com for cheap flights to Rome.

Fly into London and out of Rome, or VV.

Enjoy your visit.

MFNYC

Rick Steves has a useful map on their website. It shows all the rail routes with approx. time and cost.

Palenque

In France and Italy most long-distance trains must be reserved before boarding - a specific seat - In Germany and Switzerland no trains require them and you can just hop on any old train. (In Germany a few ICESprinters, which the average tourist will never encounter and in Switerland tourist-oriented specialty trains like the Glacier Express do require reservations but not normal train does IME

Palenque

With only 3 weeks, London, Paris and Rome should take up all of your time.
If you do that, you needn't bother with trains.>

I will dispute this - you could do that but with three weeks you may also want to see a bit of europe - outside those three mega cities

for example between Paris and Rome lies Switzerland - three days is enough for the average traveler in London, Paris and Rome - indeed many are glad to leave the busy cities and see something more bucolic - so spend a week perhaps in Switzerland or in Provence or the Riviera before striking off for Italy.

If you advise a European coming to the States would you suggest they only spend their three weeks in New York, Washington DC and San Francisco, flying between them - then they would not see the real America in between the big tourist cities and that would be a shame

Three weeks is a lot of time in compact europe and try to see some of Europe besides huge cities and airports IMO

tea4two

All this information is very helpful.. We just booked our flight,still thinking of the rail pass because we really would like to see more than less of Europe. What are the must see in Paris, we definitely want to go the Riviera, it looks amazing in pictures and any suggestions of places to stay in Switzerland?

ira

Hi tea,

>What are the must see in Paris,

You can start by looking up Paris under "Destinations".

>we definitely want to go the Riviera,......<

Why?

>any suggestions of places to stay in Switzerland?<

Lots of posters recommend the Bernese Oberland. Again, Why?

>traveling to Europe, April 27, for approximately 3weeks... we are planning on arriving in London, then going to Paris, Switzerland, maybe Germany, then going to Italy starting at the top and ending our trip in Rome.

4, maybe 5, countries and 7-8 cities in 21 days.
London, Paris, the Riviera, the BO, Venice, Florence and Rome.

This is the "If it's Tuesday, it must be Belgium" syndrome.

Have you looked at train schedules at www.bahn.de? Do you know how long it will take you to get between cities/towns? How much of your vacation time will you be sitting in trains?

How much of this trek will you actually remember?

ira

Hi Pal,

>If you advise a European coming to the States would you suggest they only spend their three weeks in New York, Washington DC and San Francisco,<

Of course not.

5 days in NYC, 5 Days in New Orleans, 5 days in Chicago and 5 days in SF.

Fra_Diavolo

Hi Pal --

"then they would not see the real America in between the big tourist cities and that would be a shame."

Starting to think that "Pal" is short for Palin . . .

Holly76

i would do london in three days, then head to paris on eurostar. paris could be done in two days. then rent a car, go east to alsace and southern germany for the second week or so. you would have enough time to make the trip over the alps (switzerland or western austria) into italy. after a stop in florence, there were two or three days left in rome. you would be able to se as much as you can withing the three weeks. and the amount of driving is quite acceptable (paris-zurich-rome is 1,500 kms; paris-munich-rome is 1,800 kms).

Palenque

How much of your vacation time will you be sitting in trains?>

and what do you go to Europe for? Just to see museums and churches or to look out the train window as it tracks thru the countryside and you may even meet Europeans to chat with as well.

I guarantee you that some days spent in the Berner Oberland at the expense of spending a week each in Paris and Rome will be the highlight of your trip

big cities can be fatiguing - long lines at tourist sites most first-timers want to see - suffocatingly bad air in the case of Paris and loud boisterous traffic and such mega tourist cities are also more expensive in every way.

vs the tranquility of the alps from your balcony porch in Grindelwald, etc.

>we definitely want to go the Riviera,......<

Why?> Ira must have never been to the French Riviera i guess.

Paris - Interlaken - about 5 hours and you actually see some lovely countrside in France and Switzerland en route.

Interlaken - Rome - hop a night train here perhaps or head to Venice - again about 5-6 hours, etc.

and a one-hour plane ride means: trek out to the airport - have to be there so much before the flight, which can be late - then waiting for luggage and transfer into the city - how long does that take in addition to the flight - and what have you seen - airports mainly.

To say you need 7 days in Paris is just so out of touch with most first-time travelers - 3 days enough then move on to explore some other place IMO.

Fodor oligarchs forget what many first-time travelers want - especially younger folk IMO - i'd go without a schedule in cement and move along when you feel like it. And don't judge European trains by American ones - no parallel - many now go up to 190mph and Europe is not that big - and again it's not a druge like on airlines where you can't move around easily and obviously don't see much (except perhaps the tops of the Alps) - trains are modern - you can bring all your own food and drink aboard - talk to Europeans in a relaxed way, etc.

Well that's my opinion - see more than big tourist cities.

ira

Hey Pal,

>I guarantee you that some days spent in the Berner Oberland at the expense of spending a week each in Paris and Rome will be the highlight of your trip<

I'll be visiting the BO and Paris in Sept.
If it turns out not to be superior to Paris, will you pay my expenses for that portion of the trip?

>Well that's my opinion - see more than big tourist cities.<

And it is a very valid opinion. It is just one of many.

Kay2

I'm with Pal on this one for the reasons stated.

Tea4two,
We could probably help a little more with the itinerary if we knew your interests--seeing major sights like Eiffel Tower, visit art museums, sitting in a cafe and stolling local neighborhoods, hiking or biking in the outdoors? It makes it easier to tell you the "must sees" for your tastes.

As for railpasses, I started with passes when I first traveled to Europe just because I wanted the simplicity of one card that could get me on most trains I might want without having to figure out the fare or specific tickets. Sometimes they saved me money over point-to-point tickets if I knew the right one for the best deal with the number of countries and days I was traveling. Other times I am sure I paid more just for convenience. As suggested above, once you have a general idea of destinations, you can put them into the railsaver website and ask its advice or you can call BETS for expert advice. I also bought passes from Rick Steves one time. So difficult to tell if the pass you are asking about is the "right" one until estimated days and routes known.

With no knowledge of your interests and assuming your flights are into London/out of Rome, and knowing I like approximately 3 days in most destinations and wished I hadn't stayed a week in Paris,a possible itinerary is:

London 3 days--Parliment/Big Ben, Tower of London (order tickets for tour in advance), theater, British Museum, neighborhoods that interest you because of markets or history or.... Add on days if you want to make day trips to Coswolds or Oxford or...
Train to Paris for 3 days--Eiffel Tower, Arc de Triumphe, Louvre, Notre Dame, Sainte Chappele... Add on days if you want day trips to Versailles or a chateau

Second week
If you want the Riveria, this is where to put it in your trip, but then the routing seems difficult to Italian destinations, but others may be able to help. I have never been there.
Or this is where you can insert either Southern Germany or Switzerland for the Alps via Munich or Interlaken. Most mountain destinations will require more train changes onto local lines rather than just the fast intercity trains.
Whichever you choose, after 2-3 days train on to your first Italian destination.

Again, your interests will dictate your Italian destination choices--toward the East for Venice to see the canals and atmosphere for 2 days or to Florence to see the art and sculpture or the lakes for scenery. If Florence, plan for a third day for trip to Siena or another hilltown.

Third week
Train on to Rome--ruins, traffic, Vatican, etc.
If any days left, you could go down to Pompeii, but I think you would probably have already taken up any extra days for places you think are essential--that might be Pisa for some people or the Normandy beaches for others.

That is a lot of travel, but hits your major requests. The most difficult part in my opinion is the Riviera plus Switzerland and/or Germany and Venice--those darn Alps get in the way of rail lines. Maybe someone could recommend a place in Southern France you could visit in combination/easier with the Riviera. I have been on the Swiss side of the lake looking at the French Alps, but did not cross over.

You will also be finishing a long trip in a very crowded, noisy city. I love being a tourist in Rome, but it can be intense and could strain the nerves and friendship after so many days on the road. So, personally, I would like a quieter place for a couple of days before diving into Rome or else see Rome, then still have a couple of days left to go up into the hills.

tea4two

Great information again from everyone... we will be staying 4 nights in London, in the Kensington area. Which I believe is close to West Minister Abbey, Buckingham Palace, Big Ben, Picadilly Square ..London Tower..Abbey Road

Then heading either by the ferry from Dover to Calais, catching a train to Paris for 3-4 days see--Eiffel Tower, Arc de Triumphe, Louvre, Notre Dame,

Holly76 suggested to to rent a car, go east to Alsace and southern Germany for the second week or so. you would have enough time to make the trip over the alps (Switzerland or western Austria) into Italy. And I like that idea.. What is the driving like over there?

Someone was asking what we like... to be outdoors walking, talking hiking, biking, really down to earth people. We want to experience the culture and way of like there.