Pegontheroad

I won't change my plans because of fears of terrorism--not because cancelling a trip to Europe would be letting the terrorists win.

I think the likelihood of my being hurt or killed by terrorists is much smaller than being hurt or killed in Spokane, Washington.

PalenQ

It could make one however - the current Jihadists stuff in Paris - make one alter your habits - like several years ago on a train platform at a station in a dicey area north of Gare du Nord I was munching on a nice big pain au chocolate and an Arab-looking bloke comes and asks if the can have it -

at first I said no and he gave me a really menacing look so I said 'here take it' - today I would have given it to him straight away!

Robert2533

We happened to be in Paris 20 years ago this July when Saint-Germain was bombed. We had taken the metro that morning and had planned on taking it back, but decided to stop for a cold beer instead. We were lucky, but it wasn't the first time.

It, and a few other events in Spain, France and Portugal over the years have never deterred us from returning. I feel no less safe in Paris or Madrid then on the streets of Seattle. Maybe more so.

bvlenci

I think you have to listen to the subtext of the what te jihadists are saying. They talk about insults to the Prophet and invasions of Muslim countries, but that is just the slogans they've heard from the Pied Piper. The reality is that they're born and raised in a godforsaken banlieue of Paris, or a grimy suburb of Manchester, where they have substandard schooling, few work prospects, and a society which neither integrates nor accepts them. That's the real origin of their anger.

nytraveler

If the origin of their anger (and I don;t really buy this) is miserable local conditions in the areas in which they live - then they should mobilize politically and force the local and national governments to address the problems in a meaningful way. (Resolving these issues would be a very easy and cheap way to prevent terrorism).

However, I still think this is primarily a function of radical religious beliefs used by groups of external determined violent terrorists to try to force the whole world back into the 9th century.

(Caveat: The problem in the US may be different than face in the UK and France - where various ethnic minoriites have access to a reasonable quality of secondary education and university education is available to almost anyone with reasonable intelligence and grades.

sandralist

bvlienci,

I don't think you would say that to Jews living outside of Israel whose co-religionists and ethnic kin were being murdered. There is a horrific amount of violence being perpetrated upon people living in Muslim countries and Palestine. Many, many people are outraged by it and willing to take up arms to get it stopped. They are not upset they are living in Manchester.


>>then they should mobilize politically and force the local and national governments to address the problems in a meaningful way<<

That is what they are doing. You don't approve of their methods or goals, but they are acting politically.

I don't know why it is better in your view to violently bomb and force people forward into the 21st century than it is for other people to violently force people back to the 9th. You have a religion of progress that you are willing to be vicious to achieve. They have their religion and don't want to give it up, even if you threaten to burn them to death. (And how is your view "progress"? It's just another inquisition against Muslims.)

I am amused beyond belief you think ethnic minorities in the US have the same chances as privileged middle class whites.

sandralist

robincal,

I agree -- and "irony" doesn't even being to cover US/UK policy. The invasion of Iraq was simply one of the most catastrophic military blunders in all of world history -- truly, no exaggeration. The horrible consequences just keep rolling in, with no end in sight.

sandralist

I think some of you are missing why traveling to Paris this week or next might not be as safe as traveling next month or next year.

In a situation like the one that just happened, terrorist groups gain a huge advantage if they can immediately strike again, so they are looking for ways to do it again as soon as possible. That is why France raised its terror alert. That is why they are deploying more security forces at airports. It isn't just window dressing. You may not take terror threats seriously. They do.

You talk about safety statistics as if they were steady state. It is true that your lifetime chance of getting hit by lightening is low. But it can get awfully high if you proceed with a walk across the desert despite a thunderstorm warning.

Everybody in Paris presently as a higher chance of getting caught in a terror attack for the remainder of the week than applies for someone in Italy, for real world reasons. Does that mean nothing bad will happen to you if you go to Italy? No. Does that mean Paris is now worse for gun deaths than the US? No. But is there a rational reason for the continuing terror alert in Paris? Yes.

NewbE

There are two reasons I am not canceling my plans for traveling outside the US in a couple of months:

1. It is impossible to predict the where and when of a terrorist attack. If I could know that the country I am going to will be targeted while I'm there, I would think twice--honestly, I would. But a global warning is too vague, because...reason #2...

2. Canceling would cost a sum of money that is significant to me. A sum worth dying for? Of course not, but see reason #1.

I don't care a fig about the terrorists winning by scaring me--nothing I do personally will matter in this regard. But all I know is that the world--the whole world--just got more dangerous, according to the State Department, and that is not a useful piece of information.

Being perfectly honest, we went to NYC in October 2001 largely because we had already planned the whole damn trip, and for no better or higher reason than that. Once there, we were glad as hell to support the tourism industry there, and were thanked profusely many times by waiters and taxi drivers and doormen and you name it. But I can't say we went with a warrior spirit.

I am suspicious of anyone who claims lofty motivation for something as self-interested as travel, but perhaps I simply lack conviction.

bilboburgler

"The reality is that they're born and raised in a godforsaken banlieue of Paris, or a grimy suburb of Manchester, where they have substandard schooling, few work prospects, and a society which neither integrates nor accepts them. That's the real origin of their anger."

I must tell that to my doctor, my lawyer and most of my last management team, that they had few prospects etc and they would laugh. If you look at those Brits who did the 7/7 bombing, most were educated, some were "simple minded" but all had suffered none of the issues you raise.

Have a great day, stay happy, be thankful for who you know and don't be scared.

NewbE

I think it should be obvious by now that the roots of radical Islam do not boil down to one easily articulated "reality". The banlieues didn't cause it, American invasions didn't cause it, colonialism didn't cause it, internecine religious strife didn't cause it, the creation of Israel didn't cause it, they all caused it. Throw in the ineffable, by which I mean, the sense that certain long-simmering currents' time has come, the perfect storm, if you will, and you''re closer, IMO, but no one, no one can say "THIS caused it", so THAT will fix it". If only.

bvlenci

A great deal, indeed the majority, of the violence being perpetrated on Muslims world-wide is being perpetrated by other Muslims.

I certainly don't think ethnic minorities in the US (or anywhere) have equal opportunities, and indeed the US went through its own period of aspirations to violent revolution. It requires not only the conditions of life of the minority group, but also the existence of talented gurus of violence, and a certain zeitgeist.

I also didn't ever say that anybody's doctor or lawyer lived a bleak existence in a godforsaken industrial suburb. The US has a black president who has led a privileged life. What does that have to do with the black teenagers who get gunned down for hesitating a second when told to hit the ground? Or choked to death for selling single cigarettes out of a pack? The US just happens right now not to have a Bobby Seal or an Angela Davis (just an ego-tripping Al Sharpton) or the recent protest marches might turn into a real movement.

This spate of jidhadism will play itself out. It will achieve little or nothing, just as the Brigata Rossa, the Weather Underground, and the Baader-Meinhof Gang achieved little or nothing. Of course these are all political movements, and they all had legitimate grudges, but they were spectacularly ineffective, except in stroking the egos of their leaders and creating martyrs.

Robert2533

"The invasion of Iraq was simply one of the most catastrophic military blunders in all of world history -- truly, no exaggeration."

History would tend to disagree. The bombing of Pearl Harbor wasn't exactly the perfect plan. Nor was the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand in Sarajevo in June 1914, which led to the eventual downfall of several empires including the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires, and later the Prussian, German and Italian Empires.

"The US has a black president who has led a privileged life"? By who's definition? I look at him as someone who worked hard to get where his is. Nothing privileged in that.

NewbE

bvlenci
<
This spate of jidhadism will play itself out. It will achieve little or nothing, just as the Brigata Rossa, the Weather Underground, and the Baader-Meinhof Gang achieved little or nothing. >

I don't find your analogy entirely apt. Firstly, not all "jihadis"--I assume you're including IS (or ISIS or ISIL) and the various AQ groups and perhaps the FSA under the same tent-- share the same goals. Further, they have roots in territorial and religious divisions going back centuries, if not millennia.

So while I don't disagree that their efforts may flame out into nothing, ancient grievances are not really comparable to the political agendas of the groups you name. In my view, anyway.

The point being, they are harder to understand, and almost impossible to mediate without creating even more ill will. And they're too big to simply crush. So this will affect our travel plans, ahem, for generations, I fear.

NewbE

Almost forgot:
Barack Obama did not lead such a privileged life. Where does this idea come from?? He seems patrician, perhaps, and is certainly well educated. But he was raised by a single mother and was ways a scholarship student.

Not that I understand the relevance of your point, sorry!

sandralist

Robert2533,

I very carefully wrote "one of the most" -- not "the most". I see nothing in your response to make me want to change my wording or that would make "history" disagree with me.

bvlienci,

I have so idea if today's terror movements will succesd as well as those that worked to push the creation of the state of Israel, or the freeing of the slaves in the US, or the present republic of France, or the modern revolutions of China. Not all terrorism fails to achieve its goals, or remains isolated.

NewbE,

While it is a kind of eternal truth that things can't be boiled down to just one cause, there has been an incredibly willful resistance in the West to listening to the answers terrorists give when asked "Why are you doing this?"

In this particular case, the actual terrorists involved -- whose group affiliations are murky at best -- said. on more than one occasion -- that they had been drawn to violent activity in reaction to Abu Ghraib, the French anti-burqa law and the violence and denial of rights directed at Palestinians. They could be lacking self-awareness, but those are probably closer to the truth than generalities that Westerners make after a terror attack when they run to the internet or TV cameras to shout: "I know why they do that! They hate our freedoms!"

Umm, seems to me that the West has given up an awful lot of its freedoms since 9-11, and yet the terrorists don't like us any better. Likewise, when people rush to defend the French "liberte" the don't ask what happened to the "egalite" for French female Muslims in choosing their own dress, or the "fraternite" when Marine Le Pen is moving up in the polls. Muslims and Islam are not responsible for what happened at Charlie Hebdo, and it would help if people recognized that.

I thought the most startling thing anybody has said thus far in the aftermath of the attacks were the remarks of Netanyahu of Israel while he was in Paris for the unity march, telling Jews living in Paris that Israel is their real home and they should go live there!

sandralist

Actually, I just found this article online about terrorism which is removed from the sensational events of the past weeks. But it has this useful description of terrorists and terrorism:

"“First, terrorism involves the use of violence. Second, there is a political motive that activates the violence. Third, there is an intention to strike fear among the victims and their community. Finally, the victims of terrorism are civilians or noncombatants. .... [T]errorism is more likely to emerge in counterculture communities with dualistic ideologies — worldviews that divide humanity into polarized categories, such as good and evil — whose members feel threatened by external challenges to their values and way of life. Such communities are usually led by charismatic leaders who frame the external threat as catastrophic, thereby helping to justify violence as a legitimate and necessary response. Members of such groups become radicalized through socialization processes involving intensive interactions with family members, close friends, co-workers and neighbors. Within such social networks, members are more likely to resort to terrorism when they identify themselves intensely with the counterculture community, have a high level of “biographical availability” (young, single, unemployed), and experience a personal crisis, such as the sudden and violent loss of loved ones."


The article is a book review of a volume that was written about the activity of terrorist groups in Palestine prior to the creation of the state of Israel. I read it all the way through and found it fascinating in the context of this week's events, despite it being written more than 5 years ago.

http://www.mepc.org/journal/middle-e...rrorism-israel

Robert2533

The invasion of Iraq was an act of stupidity, but it doesn't rank with the top blunders, just the stupidist. It was nothing like the Battle of Gallipoli, Verdun, the Maginot line, the fall of Singapore, the Bay of Pigs and the Six-Day War, which ended wth the destruction of the Air Forces of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria, all inside of one long week . These are but a few of the blunders from the last century.

sandralist

Sorry, Robert2563, we'll just have to disagree, or perhaps it's a misunderstanding. However you want to put it. You appear to consider yourself a military strategy expert, which is fine with me. So rank it wherever you want. I'm not interested in arguing the point.

I want to re-phrase something I wrote above economically that others might pounce on simplistically, which is that understanding that Muslims as a group and Islam as a religion are not the cause for what happened at Charlie Hebdo is important.

IMDonehere

During our travels there have been many incidents and warnings and rarely did we change our travel plans. We did want to visit Sri Lanka but they had a long civil war which now seems to be truly over. I once drove into a riot in Miami. And once we went to Guatemala after the DOS issued a warning that European and American women were at risk because the military was spreading rumors they were kidnapping children for body parts.

We also live in NYC and I worked just a few blocks from the Trade Center and was there on 9/11.

It was then I resolved not to manipulated by political leaders and terrorists and do things as normal as possible whenever possible and not to cower under a threat.

We are witnessing an internal struggle for religious and political power within the Muslim world. Attacks on the western countries are usually done to show how cruel, powerful, and clever one group may be. This is going to last at least another 30 years, so you might as well decide now how you are going to travel or remain afraid.