There are up to the minute sites for costs and schedules of trains.

All guide books are basically obsolete when printed due to the change of hours for anything that has hours and change of ownership of restaurants and hotels and closings.

I find changes/closures in European restaurants and hotels less frequent than in the US. So if it's a recent guidebook -- and you trust it -- then the restaurant and hotel recommendations should be reliable. Confirm hotel ratings at booking.com and tripadvisor.com.

Never trust opening days and times in guidebooks. Doublecheck on the sight's Internet website and make sure that's the most up-to-date website.

Forget Zurich, but do include 3 days for Luzern--much nicer.

I do agree about Zürich - yuck.

As for your train travel, I'm happy to help where I can (I don't know boo about Portugal, though), but dates would be helpful, as well as your ages (maybe you said that already and I missed it). There's no way to PM on Fodors, but if you want to email me, that's fine: StCirq at aol dot com.

And yes, check out the train info that the Man in Seat 61 offers - brilliant!

thank you all brilliant people of Fodors!

Okay, taking Zurich off the list - will instead do Turin -> Luzern -> Lichtenstein -> Munich

Going to redo my list w/ dates now

Okay, here's what I came up with, feel free to give me advice and/or feedback on this

May 27 - June 4 Rome (Day trip to Pompei & another day trip nearby ** give me recommendations)
June 4 - June 7 Florence (day trip to Pisa & somewhere ** give me recommendations)
June 7 - June 10 Cinque Terre (would we have to go back to Florence in order to get to Venice or can we just go from La Spezia?)
June 11 - June 14 Venice (possible day drip nearby ** give me recommendations, Murano? Burano? Padua?)
June 15 - June 18 Turin (day trip Milan)
June 19 - 21 Luzern
June 22 - June 24 Munich
June 25 - June 27 Salzburg
June 28 - July 2 Prague
July 3 - July 6 Berlin
July 7 - July 9 Copenhagen
July 10 - July 13 Stockholm
July 14 - July 18 Frankfurt/Wetzlar
July 19 - July 24 Paris (possible day drip nearby ** give me recommendations)
July 25 - July 26 Brussels
July 27 - July 28 Amsterdam
August 29 - August 4 London
August 5 - August 7 Essex
August 8 - August 15 Edinburgh (possible day drip nearby or places to stop on our way from Essex to Edinburgh ** give me recommendations)

I'll start at the end and proceed unsystematically:

One suggestion-sounds like your husband is into Scandinavian stuff, so he should like to stop in York, England to visit the Viking Center. There's also lots of other stuff to see there: magnificent cathedral with Roman ruins underneath, medieval area, great museums.

From Edinburgh, Stirling Castle is the obvious easy day trip.

From Venice, Padua makes a great day trip if you care about art at all--Scrovigni Chapel is a short walk from the RR station. We prefer Torcello to the other two islands in the lagoon: really old church, good restaurants and, most important: absence of crowds.

Florence: Siena is a good day trip--better than Pisa, in my opinion, although the area around the Tower is interesting.

Paris: Chartres is good; Versailles of course.

Notice you've skipped Vienna, which, in my opinion, is worth stop, if only on the way to Prague.

Unless you really like to hike, I'd skip the Cinque Terre. Don't know that you could bike on the trail. CT has underwhelmed me in the past.

An alternative would be to go to Sorrento to stay and then backtrack via train to see Pompeii. To me the Bay of Naples is much more beautiful (and about a thousand times more historically and artistically important) than the CT. You can do a day trip to Pompeii (did it myself first time in Europe) but it makes a very long and exhausting day and it's best seen in combination with the National Archaeological Museum in Naples which has lots of the objects from there. Or stay right in Naples itself and see Pompeii by train.

Rome--Tivoli for Hadrian's Villa and the gardens.

Luzern is great, but I would pick Grindelwald over Luzern. If you like hiking in the nearest thing to heaven here on earth, I would stay in Grindelwald and explore the Bernese Oberland under the Eiger!

When we went to Cinque Terre, we made it a day trip from Santa Margherita Ligure.

Walking distance from SML is Portofino which is a pretty little town.

It took us 5 hours to visit all 5 cities of Cinque Terre. I didn't see much there to warrant staying there (maybe I am wrong). SML is a beautiful place.

The salt mine south of Salzburg is fun! (I've been there twice now. The Ice Cave in Wergen is pretty cool too!)

The trip looks easier if you eliminate Turin or Venice (from CT you could go right to Turin then up to Switz, etc.) If no Turin, then you could do a Venice to Vienna to Prague to Salz to Munich. (but I'm sure Turin family would love to see you)

I look at this list and wish I were doing it!! haha

Back in my youth, I used to save on hotels with overnight trains.

I did not like Frankfurt at all.

Stockholm back to Frankfurt? (There must be a reason) Seems disconnected.

Planning is half the fun of going there, so keep having fun! Lots of brilliant minds on this forum!!

You have a lot of 3 or 4 day stops which means that you spend part of one of the days traveling and then have 1 or 2 full days to see the sights before packing and moving again on the last day.

If I was you, I'd extend the stay in Prague (which is already longer than most) by one or better two days. That way you have one longer break where you can waste some time to just relax without caring about sights, packing or whatever. For me it'd be too hectic a schedule without such a time to relax.

Prague is a great place to hang out and I'd prefer sacrificing one other city to get the longer stay there.

For day trips from Florence I second Sienna. I think the two places offer enough so that you don't need a second day trip destination.

Thanks for the last round of replys, if I could give you all a huge hug/kiss I would. Going to let what you said soak in and redo the schedule a bit. Keep the advice coming!

BTW, on a quick note. We are going to Turin because we have a good friend there, he has a huge house somewhere in Monaco and in Wetzlar (near Frankfurt - I just put Frankfurt because i'm assuming that's where the train would go) and he's single and wont be in town. He's letting us stay at his place(s) for free so we figured that we would make good use of it by using the place in Wetzlar/Frankfurt & Turin as hub, and go to different places around the area - that's the only reason we are staying longer in each of those places - but where around there is good enough to go on day trips? it's really not worth staying longer if we can't make day trips, right? so should we cut our stay in those places shorter and spend it elsewhere?

Fiance is not into Scandinavian things per say - he's an engineer specializing in alternative energy. I just finished med school. He has read a lot about the walkable communities and alternative energy things in Copenhagen and Stockholm - that's why he's insisting on going to those two particular places, could we make those stays also a bit shorter and still enjoy the cities? let me know

Also, thanks for the info on Cinque Terre, will cut that short.

Regarding hotels - we're only going to do hotels in certain places. We are both BIG fans of AirBNB and other similar sites, so we're going to use that for most places. I know some of you might be sneering at as but yeah, we're cheap like that and like it. Med school and grad school debt is no joke. We'll enjoy fancy hotels and resorts when we're older and have earned it, in the meantime couch surfing and sleeping on a strangers (who is not home!)- here we come!

Our age - he's 30 and I'm 27, so no Eurrail discount :/ and I'm actually mad at myself, because if I had purchased a Eurrail pass by Dec 30 we would have saved 20% !!!! (http://www.eurail.com/eurail-passes/...-peak-discount) so mad at myself, but I found out about it too late! that could have saved us $310 -- do you all think we should bother w/ a 2 month Eurrail Global pass + 15 day Britrail pass? or just try to do this using point-by-point trains? Need to save the most money here because it's going to be the most expensive aspect. We could also do a 15 days within 2 months pass BUT that only limits us to 5 countries


Eurail Select Pass 5 countries 15 days in 2 months = $1,950
2 month global Eurrail pass = $3,130
15 day Britrail pass = $958

Also, honestly do you think the fold up bikes are worth it to take?? they are SUPER light and once packed in their bag are considered carry on. BUT they will also need to be wheeled around once we're on the ground... still I could see them being super handy for our longer stays. What say you all?

I forget the BED in that paragraph about hotels. That should have read "in the meantime couch surfing and sleeping on a strangers BED (who is not home!)- here we come!"

I swear, we're not planning on sleeping on any strangers. lol

Petalstogo, I am guessing no rail pass is going to turn out to be cheaper for you, but a lot of math is involved in figuring it out, so when you absolutely have your itinerary finalized come back and tell us what it is, and we can help you through the maze of European train systems. There are LOTS of bargains to be had, but you do need to commit to traveling from A to B on certain days at certain times. Meaning, you pay through the nose for total flexibility to change your plans.

Can't speak to the bike issue, sorry. If I never get on another bike in my life, that'll be fine with me.

I have no problem with Airbnb accommodations - I think it's a great service! We had a rather weird and funny experience with them last time we were in France (you can read about it in my Trip Report called Not A Trip Report by clicking on my name here if you so wish), but we are totally into traveling on the smallest budget possible these days (after years of traveling more upscale, but it's fine!). We did fine in Paris, for example, on about 25-30 euros a day for food and wine for the two of us and didn't feel deprived, and our AirBnb place was just wild and wacky enough to keep us laughing for four days.

StCirq - thanks for the info, and yes we are fine letting go of the flexibility. In fact, I have a little bit of type A personality - so I would PREFER to stick to a set itinerary. Will be finalizing things tonight and tomorrow and will update all of you. Going to go read about your trip! sounds like you had a blast, and laughs are always a plus.

Rental bicycles are available in every European town. Too much hassle to take your own bicycles. Remember: Travel light.
May 27 - June 4 Rome Skip Pompeii and take in Civita di Bagnoregio and Orvieto 70 minutes north of Rome. Then head for Florence.
June 4 - June 7 Florence (day trip to Siena via bus) Rent car and head for San Gimignano and Volterra.
June 7 - June 10 Cinque Terre Train thru Pisa to get to La Spezia.
June 11 - June 14 Venice Skip it and go on to Turin from C.T.
June 15 - June 18 Turin (day trips to Milano and Lugano or Lake Como)
June 19 - 21 Luzern
June 22 - June 24 Munich
June 25 - June 27 Salzburg Take in Cesky Krumlov if ahead of schedule.
June 28 - July 2 Prague
July 3 - July 6 Berlin
July 7 - July 9 Copenhagen
July 10 - July 13 Stockholm (World class city in Summer)
July 14 - July 18 Frankfurt/Wetzlar Skip it. Too expensive to get to by air, and too far out of the way.
I'll stop at this point.
July 19 - July 24 Paris
July 25 - July 26 Brussels
July 27 - July 28 Amsterdam
August 29 - August 4 London
August 5 - August 7 Essex
August 8 - August 15 Edinburgh

<< May 27 - June 4 Rome (Day trip to Pompei & another day trip nearby ** give me recommendations)
June 4 - June 7 Florence (day trip to Pisa & somewhere ** give me recommendations) >>

Lucca can be done on the same day as Pisa. Do Lucca in the morning when the shops are open (and ride bikes around the top of the wall), Pisa later. The Pisa-Lucca trip would be by train. But it's most efficient to take the bus from Florence to Siena. The bus, which leaves across the street from the main train station, drops you in the middle of Siena, whereas the train station is outside the walls.

<< June 7 - June 10 Cinque Terre (would we have to go back to Florence in order to get to Venice or can we just go from La Spezia?) >>

You can go from La Spezia but you'll probably have to change trains once or twice en route. Another reason to travel light.

<< June 11 - June 14 Venice (possible day drip nearby ** give me recommendations, Murano? Burano? Padua?) >>

Torcello (another island), the Lido.

<<June 15 - June 18 Turin (day trip Milan)
June 19 - 21 Luzern
June 22 - June 24 Munich
June 25 - June 27 Salzburg
June 28 - July 2 Prague
July 3 - July 6 Berlin
July 7 - July 9 Copenhagen
July 10 - July 13 Stockholm
July 14 - July 18 Frankfurt/Wetzlar
July 19 - July 24 Paris (possible day drip nearby ** give me recommendations) >>

In addition to the previous recommendations, there's Giverny, Monet's home and garden.

<< July 25 - July 26 Brussels
July 27 - July 28 Amsterdam >>

I'd skip Brussels and spend 2 nights in Amsterdam. More to see there and you'll be frustrated even with 2 days.

<<August 29 - August 4 London
August 5 - August 7 Essex
August 8 - August 15 Edinburgh (possible day drip nearby or places to stop on our way from Essex to Edinburgh ** give me recommendations)>>

Many possibilities here. Staying on the east side, there's York (lots to see) and Durham, the North Yorkshire moors, Hadrian's wall,.... It doesn't make sense to stay in Edinburgh and do day trips by car. Parking in central Edinburgh, where you will want to stay, is rare and expensive. If you drop the car, you can instead take bus day trips; both Rabbie's and Timberbush are recommended and offer a variety of trips in smaller groups. We did a day trip to St. Andrews, an interesting town even if you don't like golf.

Just noticed your dates in Edinburgh overlap with the Festival. I hope you already have a place to stay. It's crowded and expensive in Edinburgh in August, but the Festival is famous worldwide.

Reading this in one gulp, it seems like an awful lot of stops. But you do have a fair amount of time at many places. Hopefully you'll be able to slow down a bit and smell the roses.

alright, going to finalize things a bit more tonight, but in the meantime I crunched some numbers and I think we can get away with renting a car for the first part of our trip.

So what I am thinking is that we should rent a car on the day that we are leaving ROME and we can use that to travel to go to
Florence
Venice
Turin/Milan
Lucerne
Munich
Salzbur
Vienna
Prague
Wetzlar/Frankfurt - we have to go here to visit some family nearby

we will return the car the day we arrive in Frankfurt, stay in the area for a few days and from that point on take the train, etc.

I already have a quote for the car ($1,250)
and I have estimated the miles and even added 200 miles in case of trips out of the way, the car gets about 31mpg but I estimated it at around 25mpg - took that and accounted for $9.00 per gallon of gas and the total for that comes out $825. the only thing that I have not taken into account is toll roads, etc. because I have no idea how much they are.

I think it might be worth it to have the car for that first leg because the places we are going the cities are only about 1.5 - 5 hours apart from each other and having the car for that leg of the trip will allow us to go to stop and go as we please... it's also a pretty scenic drive, so that will really enhance the whole experience.

What do you guys think about this plan?

the second leg of the trip where we would NOT have a car would be
Berlin
Copenhagen
Stockholm
Paris
Brussels
Amsterdam
London
Essex
Edinburgh

If you are going to pick up a car and drop in another country-for sure you should take a look at the lease options like the one mentioned about. We use

http://www.autofrance.net/

It is basically similar to the one through Kemwel mentioned above with Peugeot. We use this program every year-it is only really cost effective if you keep the car a month though and it is cheaper per day the longer you keep the car and cheaper if you can pick up and drop in France. The site can give you a quote "instantly" on the website so you can compare with the train and car combo you are thinking about-no need to contact anyone. And you get on your preference of car-and it will be a brand new car that includes all insurance and you can choose the model and make and can guarantee that you get a diesel car which will save on fuel coasts.

It might be worth a look-you might even consider bringing your bikes if you keep a car the entire time. My husband and I live part time in France and frankly we have mostly found that with 2 people, even with gas and tolls many times a car is about the same price as taking trains. It also gives you so much more freedom.

So for instance you could fly into Nice and pick up the car avoiding the out of France $100 pick up fee, then drive to Italy and start part one of your trip then just continue on to part 2 of your trip and drop the car in Paris and take the Eurostar to London from there.

Have fun! My husband and I also got married on the last Saturday of May but 39 years ago. We flew to Europe for our honeymoon but used my husband's grandmother's deux chevaux that looked like this for our honeymoon:

http://www.simoncars.co.uk/citroen/chevaux.html

Then we went off to Honolulu for me to go to grad school as well-so your trip planning is bring up lots of nice memories for me