Could all those who have some deep, fulminant hostility toward traveling children please take this opportunity to vent here? <BR> <BR>That way, sincere discussions about family travel can take place without being interrupted by snarling, negative, gratuitous posts from you.

you say gratuitous, we say that this is the only way we can vent our very real frustrations when people travelling with children disrupt the quality of our vacations. If you can travel with your children and I don't have to deal with them in any way, fine, cool, go for it. But at the point in time where my vacation is diminished because your child is out of control, then something has to give.

Ahh, the omnipresent zzzzz. We've been expecting you. <BR> <BR>It's gratuitous, you say, because you never get a chance otherwise to tell off people with children? <BR> <BR>Well, that's exactly why I proposed this thread. This is your chance. Have at it.

Amen, zzz, right on - same for children in restaurants - could not have said it better

Your attitude Zeus - please only vent here - is as unrealistic as someone expecting to travel and not have to deal with children. The world is not some manicured lawn, cookie cutter suburb. We all step on each others toes - sometimes on purpose, most of the time accidently. If your want some type of controlled emvironment might I suggest Disney World?

Ah, Mark -- was expecting you as well. Welcome. Spill. Spill. You'll feel better.

Zeus, I love my cats, I also happen to love, pot bellied pigs. I am devistated when I have to leave these creatures who are such an integral part of my life! So now, why should I not be allowed to take them into restaurants? On airplanes??? Into shops and on subways.... I am sure that they have the same level of appreciation as a 2 year old for the works of Renoir. <BR>I think that in the end the really horrible shortcomings of a few parents who take, unruly, inconsiderate, noisy, disruptive, spoiled children and force innocent people to be victemized by the behaviors of these children has prejudiced the way a great many people feel about those who travelwith kids. There are parents out there who know how to travel with children, the ones who take the squallng child out of the restaurant/theatre/church etc. The ones who stay in hotels that target "family" . But so many parents are seemingly clueless when it comes to control issues. I literally watched in horror as a toddler ran INTO THE KITCHEN of a very busy restaurant, while the mother chatted with a friend and did nothing... a few minutes later the inevitable deadly screams came out from the kitchen as an unsuspecting waiter accidentally bumped into the 3 foot tall kid and spilled coffee on him. Who is at fault here? The child, don't think so. The waiter... contrary to what the mother screamed at him, I don't think so .. or the 50 other diners' who had their meal ruined by the hysterical scene that ensued? Guess again. Maybe if parents were better at parenting there would be no hostility!

Ah, Buyer joins us, too, right on schedule. Welcome, welcome. Don't you feel better now?

Ah, Zeus. You have created a new kind of troll. Post a provocative title on a provocative subject and use provocative language. If anyone bites, lash out at them with sarcasm. But never add anything substantive to the discussion. Nice touch.

Room for you, too, "Troll buster." Why would I add anything substantive? My own attitude toward these tantrums is completely obvious. And it isn't as if these people wanted anything more than a target to attack in order to rant once again. <BR> <BR>Of course, if the problem is that I have failed to provide a well-enough defined target, I do apologize. Let's see....um.... oh yes, "do you think I should bring my child to a restaurant?" <BR> <BR>Okay, take it away, folks. <BR> <BR>

You know, a lot of people irritate me when I travel, primarily rude ones. I think a rude adult is a million times worse than a loud kid. You know what else bugs me? Tour groups. Find a way to ban rude adults and outlaw tour groups then maybe I'll gripe about kids.

When I was a child in the 1960s, we were tought to be quiet, polite and well-behaved in public. (In private, we could play noisily, etc.) I'd like to see parents bring their children up the same way, now. <BR> <BR>There are a lot more facilities for children, now (e.g. pubs/bars with special play areas), and I'm willing to concede McDonalds, for example, as a children's place. But when children come into adult zones, e.g. pubs/bars/restaurants, I expect them to behave well.

At least in Britain we've had the sense to ban kids from our pubs, so there is somewhere to get a quiet drink, and a bit of peace.

Topping this for those who should use it. <BR>And maybe will stay off Jeff's thread.

I have been to Europe on 4 seperate occasions totaling a period of approximately 11 months, and I do not remember ever seeing a misbehaving child in a restaurant (or any child on most occasions). I also have not been distracted by screaming children in hotels (and I stay in cheap hotels at that), and have as well been spared the experience of the flight made unpleasant by disrupted babies or generally ill-raised youth. I highly doubt that these problems are tolerated at five-star hotels and internationally renowned restaurants either, though I admit I cannot speak from experience. I suspect that a great deal of this resentment comes from those who aspire to fancy themselves aristocrats and international figures of culture on their two week vacations but are frustrated by their inability to escape their fellow coarse and dilettantish suburbanites even on the other side of the globe. Surely the true Important and Great and Brillant of this world never have to suffer such indignities as contemplating works or art or enjoying fine wine and cuisine surrounded by the vulgar and unattractive hordes; in fact I am quite positive that they do not. It sounds to me like you should either demonstrate enough wealth or intellectual/social clout to keep the riffraff out as these aforementioned do or be grateful that you are even let into these buildings in any capacity other than that of servant, which is undoubtedly the only way you would have been admitted in the days when the culture you seek was being raised.

Oooo, Michael, what a lovely tang of class-ism your post has! But not nearly acrimonious enough to properly provoke the parent-bashers. Come, come, people, this thread remains entirely too civil.

Liz, like you, I grew up in the 60's where I was taught to speak when spoken to, and listened when it wasn't my turn to speak. I was taught to respect my elders. I never called people by their first name, but used Mrs._____ or Mr. ______. When my parents had dinner parties, my brother and I were fed and ready for bed before the guests came over. We could greet everyone, then we had to go upstairs to our room. We end to bed at a decent hour. <BR> <BR>In today's society, the many parents I have seen do not instill any kind of respect for adults or respect for their own parents. I have heard some of my friends children talk back to their parents and once to me! I see kids go to bed late at night, I never see them study for school, and they have an attitude that they can hang around the adults and think they are adults too. I hear parents repeat themselves a dozen times "go to bed" or "do your homework" and not follow-up with their statement. <BR>I also agree that there are many adults that I have encountered while traveling who have been worse than a child. However I don't believe a very small child should be traveling. How does a 2 year old appreciate what they are seeing? And who needs a screaming kid in a restaurant? We pay good money for our trips, so it's disturbing when children create such a noisy atmosphere that we can't enjoy our food or the sights. Parents today don't dicipline their children. Must be afraid of being reported or think a firm tone and firm pat on the butt (and I don't mean an abusive spanking) will ruin their child. Get over it. Parents have done that for years and kids have turned out fine. Now kids are ruling their parents. Stupid! <BR> <BR>If parents were to bring up their children the way children used to be brought up (and with today's "oh, let Johnny scream for an hour, he'll be fine") then I could see children traveling. Otherwise, please leave them at home.

Zeus, why do you "bait" people so if they differ with your opinion? Is it just possible that they may have a point? Is that an absolute impossibility in your world? I've had good experiences and bad in traveling with and around children. It is not black and white. Talk about "fulminant hostility."

Ah, Lola -- not quite up to the level of heat I'd expect, but certainly the il-logic is there. <BR> <BR>You don't actually know what my opinion on the subject of when, how, and why to have children accompany one on one's travels. In a moment of rare self-revelation, I might admit to agreement that it's neither black nor white. But the only reason some people might actually ask what I think would be to jump at a new opportunity to rant about the horrors of children and parenting nowadays. <BR> <BR>The people I'm baiting are the ones who have a knee-jerk attack reaction the moment the topic of children traveling comes up -- no matter what the form, how polite and earnest the question, or concrete the situation. They pounce with acrimony every chance they get. Quite obviously, it was my hope to divert some of the hysterical rancor away so that people like Jeff could get constructive help. <BR> <BR>Your post teeters dangerously on the brink of "you're just sore because your opinion is different." No, my dear, my opinion is neither twixt nor tother -- it's the unilateral, mindless combativeness that draws my attention. I hope that's not too fine a distinction for you.

I think misbehaving children (and their parents) should drawn and quartered. <BR> <BR>'Nuff said.