There are 4 of us travelling to Germany in the last week of May and we have 3 weeks. We are flying in and out of Frankfurt and are having a headache planning our trip. Places we would like to go are, Bavaria (esp Berchtesgaden, Garmisch, Fussen, Chiemsee), Black Forest (Freiburg, Triberg, Titisee), and Rhine and Mosel valley. This is what I have in mind:

- spend the first 10 nights in Munich and go to the Bavarian Alps as daytrips.

- another 5 nights at Freiburg as a base for daytrips to Triberg and Titisee/Feldberg.

- 5 nights at Koblenz for Rhine cruises and trips to Rudesheim/St Goar/Mosel valley

- last night at Frankfurt airport hotel

Our initial intention is to spend 5 nights each at Berchtesgaden and Garmisch (or Fuessen) but we found that it is really inconvenient to travel from these places, esp if we use the Bayern ticket and can only take local train after 9am. Furthermore, travelling from Garmisch or Fuessen to the Black Forest (Freiburg) is also another 6hr train! Unless anyone know of a way to solve our transportation problems?

Based on my itinerary, do you think we need the German railpass which offer a 4 rail days. I am wondering if we can use the discount tickets like Bayern tickets, etc to travel around?

Another question, is Rothenburg part of Bavaria? It is always classified under the Romantic Road but I saw a map of Bavaria and it is included. So can I use the Bayern ticket to go to Rothenburg from Munich as a daytrip?

Is the Black Forest area part of Baden-Württemberg? Can I use the Baden-Württemberg-Ticket to travel from Freiburg to say Heidelberg?

If we have the German railpass and want to take the Rhine river cruise, do we have to pay any supplement or reservation? The conditions stated that supplements needed for hydrofoils, so are all ships hydrofoils or only selected ones?

I am only going to address one of your many questions.

Regarding your itinerary, many of the places you wish to visit are not in close proximity to where you plan to overnight. The places you wish to visit actually lend themselves to a tour loop.

Here's my suggestion. Arrive Frankfurt, travel to Koblenz (stay however long you wish) and visit the Rhine/Mosel areas which are in the area, all within easy reach for daytrips.

Travel to Freiburg (stay however long you wish), visit the areas of the Black Forest, all within easy access of Freiburg.

Travel to Garmisch or Fussen, stay a few days and visit in this area. Do the lower part of the Romantic Road.

Travel to Munich, stay a few days and see Berchtesgaden or even Salzburg as day trips.

Leave Munich and connect with the rest of the Romantic Road into Rothenburg. Rothenburg is quite far north and is certainly not part of Bavaria. Stay a night or two, then travel back to Frankfurt.

If you wish to see Munich at the beginning of your trip, you could do this in reverse. However, the Rhine/Mosel areas are close to FRA (within 1-2 hrs) and after a transatlantic flt you may wish to stay the first several nights close, without having to travel a long way.

Hope this helps.

Here's a link to a map for rail travel in:

<b>BAYERN (Bavaria)</b>
http://www.bayern-takt.de/htdocs/bahnkarte.htm

<b>RHEINLAND-PFALZ &amp; SAARLAND</b>
http://www.bahn.de/pv/view/mdb/conte...aarland/25.pdf

<b>BADEN-WURTTEMBERG</b>
http://www.rail-and-relax.de/home.htm

Hope this helps in your planning. Peace. &gt;-

Robyn

Hello Akiace

Yes Rothenburg is part of Bavaria, so technically, you can use the Bayern ticket, though it'll take a while to get there. You may want to do a base in the northern Bavaria and visit the surrounding towns:
1.Wurzburg(visit Residenz &amp; Festung) 2.Bamberg (wonderful old town with picturesque frescoed bridge &amp; wooden houses/fachwerk)
3. Bayreuth (small old city w/high culture)
4. Nurnberg (walled old city with a fort, squares etc)
5. Dinkelsbuhl
They are all in Bavaria. We used to be able to take the faster/nicer trains on weekends but the rules have changed.

In 1999, we did the Rhine trip riding the slow boat down river and the train up river. Personally I was not too impressed with the Rhine riverboat ride; it was rather unexciting (very few highlights). I would recommend taking the train most of the way except maybe near the Loreley. Your time will be better spent on hiking the towns &amp; forts or visiting the vineyards.

I probably should clarify my last post about the rhineboats as others may disagree. We could have enjoyed the same view from the train at a fraction of the time. You can take the train on both banks of the river. I suppose I'm just not a fan of slowboats.

As you already know, the Blackforest is a bit too far from Munich, you may consider touring the Salzkammergut area just east of Salzburg instead. You can use the Bayern ticket till the first station at the Austrian border just one station away from Salzburg.

DAX -

<i>We used to be able to take the faster/nicer trains on weekends but the rules have changed.</i>

Are you referring to the &quot;Happy Weekend Ticket&quot; or something like that? I remember reading about being able to use the weekend ticket not only for travel before 9:00 am, but you could use it throughout the country, you weren't restricted to just one area. Is this pass still available? Can you help to clarify? Thanks. Peace. &gt;-

Robyn

Hi Robyn,
The Happy Weekend tickets are still available for 28 euros (Sat &amp; Sun, up to 5 people) but I'm not sure if it's still valid for the entire Germany or limited to one state.

I just check with &quot;Die Bahn&quot;, yes the Happy weekend ticket is valid for the entire country, but limited to the slow RE RB &amp; IRE trains (just like the Laender ticket)

Since there are four of you and you will be dong a lot of toing and froing relatively small towns why not simply rent a car? It will probably cost less and be much more convenient!

I agree with some of the other posters. Renting a car would be extremely convenient for your purposes, probably less expensive than the train, and would really enable you to set your own pace and see some dramatic scenery along the way.

Perhaps you could spend 5 nights or so in Munich and then rent a car for the sights around the area. Driving in the Alps is beautiful and easy (I know, I just did the trip myself). Unfortunately, the German rail system continues to raise prices, and even make budget deals less convenient.

Rather than spend 10 days in Munich, I agree with the above sentiment that some of the destinations are a bit far for a long day trip. You'll get tired of going back and forth on 2 or 3 hour trips every day. Make a loop after Munich with bases in Salzburg, Innsbruck, Garmish, Oberammergau etc. Black forest is a bit far, so is Rothenburg, but with a car on the Autobahn, your itinerary is very do-able with 3 whole weeks.

Enjoy the trip! If you need a good budget place in Salzburg or Oberammergau, I'd be happy to make a recommendation!

Woyzeck

Thank you, DAX...... Robyn &gt;-

The problem is, we don't know how to drive, so renting a car is not an option at all. We actually wanted to go to Austria in the first place but can't get a cheap air ticket, so we fly into Frankfurt instead. Now there is another option of travelling from Frankfurt to Garmisch on the first day, spend a few nights there, take a train down to Innsbruck for a few nights, then go over to Salzburg for a few nights at Salzburg/Hallstatt/St Gilgen. After that, we'll take a train/bus to Berchtesgaden for a few days of hiking before going back to Frankfurt for our flight back. Do you think this will work time and cost wise? We're worried about train fares to and from Austria, though we know we can use the Bayern ticket from Salzburg to Berchtesgaden.