MarkvonKramer

We're in the preliminary planning stage of our trip to Europe in 2007. I've been to Europe twice, once in the mid-60s and again for 3 weeks in May/June 2004. This time we'll be accompanied by another couple that have never been and their primary goal is to "see the Alps" with 14-18 days "on the ground".

I have an itinerary that routes thru Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. I want our traveling partners to feel that each day is better than the previous, a sort of a "you ain't seen nothing yet" kind of trip.

My general rules are all travel by train (although I'm going to look into the rail/drive deal for the Obersalzburg region), stay in smaller places, and have a magnificent time. (Oh yeah, no Füssen or Rothenberg ODT!)

My general plan is:
Fly into Frankfurt or Düsseldorf
Cochem 2 nites
Nürnberg 2 or 3 nites
Berchtesgaden 3 nites (base camp for Salzburg too)
Mürren/Gimmelwald 3 nites
I would like to visit friends in NRW (Böchum and Leverkuesen (sp)) before departing but not a top priority.

That leaves me 3-7 days to extend anywhere I want or just schedule down-days for rest.

Finally, a question (or two): The 9-12 hour train ride from Berchtesgaden to the BO is really a killer and a waste of time so where might I spend a day or two in the Tirol that would greatly reduce the trip to the BO? Should I rearrange my schedule someway to reduce travel time?

MvK

bob_brown

If your primary goal is to see the Alps, I think you might revise your plan just slightly.

First, Berchtesgaden is not that great a base for Salzburg because of the amount of time it takes either the bus or the train to make the trip. Your best travel times are with the bus and the trip takes 40 minutes.

I suggest you spend the time you want in Berchtesgaden and then spend a night in Salzburg.

In Salzburg, would you consider renting a car? I think you will find that for 4 people, the car would save a little money over train tickets.

Secondly here is a suggested plan that will take you to the best scenery I have seen so far in the Austrian and Swiss Alps.

From Salzburg, drive south to Heiligenblut over the Grossglockner Hochalpenstrasse. This road leads to some beautiful Austrian alpine scenery. From there you could drive to places like Kitzbuhl and the Ötztal near Sölden or Obergurgl.

We once rented an apartment in the Ötztal for a week and enjoyed it very much. The mountains around Obergurgl are steep and high. There is a glacier near Sölden that you can drive to for year 'round ski activities.

From there you could drive to a city still in Austria, drop the car, and continue on to Switzerland by train.

I suggest dropping the car in the country where you rent it because transborder drops are expensive whereas you can return the car in a different city within the same country at no added charge. (At least I did a couple of times with Avis. That said, car rentals in Austria are not cheap! You need to compare car costs, car convience with train costs and inflexibility.)

For the high Alps of Switzerland, the villages of Mürren, Wengen and some others are legendary. I also like Saas Fee and Zinal. From Saas Fee it is easy to drive to Zermatt for a long day.

Trying to reach some of those places with great scenery by bus is possible but the travel times are long.

If you are bound to public transportation, then your plans will be a little more dictated by the bus and train schedules.

If you wanted to confine your visit to Switzerland, there are plenty of ways to spend more than a week exploring new territory.

After my first 2 week visit in 1998, I have yet to get enough and would like to go back again before I get too old to walk the trails.

bob_brown

I had hoped others would respond to this one. The itinerary is potentially interesting.

A couple of after thoughts.
If the hope is to knock their socks off, let me suggest that in Switzerland you rent a car and drive over the three passes east of Interlaken: the Grimsel, the Furka and the Susten.

I think the Grossglockner Hochalpenstrasse would be a good warm up.

If you want to scare the pants off of them, drive down the Italian side of the Timmelsjoch south of Sölden. The Austrian side is a good mountain road; the Italian side gave me some concerns.

Another view that to me was a real thrill was the view of the Dom that towers some 10,000 feet above Saas Fee.
We went up on a cable lift a ways and the top did not appear any closer.

If you go to Zinal, drive to Lac de Moiry and let them look at the de Moiry Glacier.

In Grindelwald, a good trail to view the inner world of the glacial mountains is to take the cable lift up to Pfingstegg and hike west to the edge of the glacial gorge and then turn south toward Stieregg. The view from the area where there is/was a restaurant is incredible.

At one time there was a restaurant there. I understand now that it has been removed.

If true, that is too bad because it was a good place for a stop.

treplow

Basically, you have agood plan, however here are some suggestions:

Cochem 2 nights is OK, however 3 nights in Koblenz might give you a bit more flexibility in terms of visiting the Rhein and/or Mosel. Another option would be to use one or more of your extra days and fly into Cologne, or take the train from Duesseldorf to Cologne, and from there take the very scenic train trip to Trier, spend a night there and then take a boat down the Mosel to Cochem or Koblenz.

Instead of Nuernberg, I suggest 2 nights (which gives you really only one full day)in Wuerzburg. It is a very compact university city, with a great location along thj Main river and surrounded by vinyards. Its castle Festing Marienberg is worth visiting as well as the Residenz palace downtown. And it has many cozy and friendly wine restaurants, serving the Wuerzburger Frakenwein. The Hotel Amberger is quite nice and centrally located.

Berchtesgaden for 3-4 nights is OK, with visits to The Kehlsteinhaus (aka Eagles Nest) Koenigsee (lake)and Salzburg. For that part of the trip I would rent a car in B'gadn and the drop it off in Rosenheim, where you can get a train to Innsbruck, continuing from there to the Berner Oberland, or to Munich, from where you can take a train to Lindau (Lake Constance) for a couple of nights there. That braks up the B'gdn - BO trip.

From Lindau, you can take day-boat trips, inlcluding one to to Bregenz where you can have a great view of the Swiss and Austrian alps from the top of the Pfaender mountain (cable car.)

Then, from Lindau, you have good connections to Interlaken and Grindelwald or Lauterbrunnen/Wengen.

Spend some of your extra days in either of these two places, and visit the surrounding mountains: From Grindelwald the First, the Jungfraujoch and the Maennlichen. From Lauterbrunnen the Schilthorn, Wengen and the Maennlichen, Jungfrauhorn, Truemmelbach Falls. Staying in Muerren will limit your flexibility, especially since one of the ways to get to Muerren is not operating this year. You will be tied to taking cable cars.

pja1

Hi,
Trip idea sounds good. I can only comment on the parts/places I've been though. I do agree with Bob_Brown, if you have a car, about The Otztal Alps. We spent 3 nights Oct.'97 in Solden exploring the Otz valley. Timmelsjoch Pass was great, as long as heights don't bother you! Also, the Otztal Hochalpinestrasse (High Alpine Road) was very good.
As far as a stop between Bertchtesgaden and the BO, I would recomend Hall in Tirol, just outside of Innsbruck. Very easy, very short walk from the train station to our favorite "hotel" Gasthof Badl (www.badl.at) and one of our favorite towns anywhere, Hall in Tirol (www.regionhall.at or www.badl.at -excursions and tips button) It's not really the "intermediate" stop you may be looking for, as it's only a few hours from Berchtesgaden, but Hall, Gasthof Badl, the view of the mountains from our rooms balcony and the fact that it's just a few minutes to Innsbruck have made this one of our favorites. We've been here 3 times in the last 7 years! Hope this was of some help.

Paul

MarkvonKramer

To bob brown, treplow, and pja1...thanks for your input. Some really interesting suggestions and I will consider them all.

I was born in Wuerzberg in the 50s and lived in Nuremberg during the mid-60s so the suggestion to see Wuerzberg has got me thinking. It is only a hour or so from Nuremberg so I can add a day trip there and add something I hadn't even planned on doing.

Just a personal thing, but I'm really not keen on driving while on vacation in Europe. I'm honsetly thinking about it for the Obersalzburg but mostly because I want to stay in a B&B in Maria Gern rather than in-town hotels. Bus service to/from Maria Gern ends at around 6:15pm so that would shut us down way to early in the evening. That is the extent of the driving I'm prepared to do. I want to drink, chat, and cut-up with some dear friends and driving would not allow such behaviour.

Being tied to taking cable cars was really what go me going on the BO area. I originally planned to stay in Klosters but since we've done that before, I wanted a totally new Swiss experience and that trip to Muerren and Gimmelwald really seems to fit. I plan to take only a small carry-on duffelbag and a camera so the problem of lugging (is that why they call it LUGgage?) my goods all over the Alps isn't of concern.

I think the additional day to explore the Rhein and Mosel valleys is an excellent suggestion, DONE!

Hall in Tirol looks like what I need to kill a portion of that long journey from B-Gaden to the BO. Not much of it but it'll give us another nice Alpine stop. It's still an 8-12 hour trip no matter how you do it. Maybe we'll impose on friends in Winterthur.

Thanks again for your suggestions, they've been most helpful. Keep them coming, I'll keep an open (arguably) mind.

MvK

traveller1959

You better fly into Düsseldorf, because this is very close to Leverkusen and Bochum (from each town 30 min to the airport). When you are in the Alps, consider taking a cheap flight to Düsseldorf, Cologne or Dortmund.
Take some days for Bochum/Leverkusen. Leverkusen itsself is an industrial town, but it is very close to Cologne with cathedral, Roman ruins, Roman-Germanic-Museum, 12 romanesque churches, fantastic art museums etc. From Leverkusen, it is not far to Düsseldorf either. Düsseldorf is excellent for strolling along the riverfront and bar-hopping in the Altstadt. Düsseldorf is also Germany's center of contemporary art with outstanding museums, exhibitions and galleries. And, I almost forgot, Düsseldorf has Germany's most elegant shopping street, Königsallee.
Also spend two or three days in Bochum. The Ruhr area is full of attractions of extremely wide diversity. There are many chances to dip into industrial history, like excellent mining museums. You will find a high density of first-class art museums. Dozens of castles. And, again, fantastic nightlife.

treplow

I meant to add, but forgot to mention that one of the reasons I suggested you drop off your car (if you get one) in Rosenheim that this offers you the opportunity to drive the B-305/306 Deutsche Alpenstrasse ( very scenic)from B'gadn to Inzell and Siegsdorf, get on the autobahn there for the short distance to the Bernau exit and take the 2-3 hours detour to Prien and take the boat from nearby Stock to the island palace of King Ludwig , Scloss Herrenchiemsee. Then, Rosenheim is again just a short distance from there.

PS. I also as born in Wzbg, but quite a few years before WWII.

steve

Can I ask why you don't want to take them to Rothenburg and Fussen, especially if they have never been? I personally can't imagine not seeing both atleast once.

Are you planning a trip to sites you have not seen before? Are they going to miss out on some areas because you have already been there?

Not my trip and I don't have all the details, but keep in mind what you have already seen and dismissed may be of great interest to them as first timers.

MarkvonKramer

Steve,

I've been to both places. Füssen as recently as May 2004. Both are remarkable but with the time constraints I think we'll see much of the same if not better in Nürnberg and Würzberg. I thought it was a "must see" last trip and while my family liked it, they thought it not nearly as impressive as others places we visited (Nürnberg, Salzburg, Vienna, Berchtesgaden). No offense, but both places are like visiting Virginia Beach or Myrtle Beach in the USA, in that both are very nice but there are better beaches available.

This in their introduction to Europe. They can see these places if they wish on their next adventure. We have plans that I hope will "blow them away", expecially the Tirol and Switzerland.

Treplow, I visited Schloss Herrenchiemsee on my 12th b-day.

MvK