Germany and Switzerland in July
May 21st, 2014, 06:55 PM
#21
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"Russ - you also mentioned earlier that there are castles in the Rhine River Valley area worth a visit (like Burg Eltz) and several towns (Oberwesel, St. Goar, Bacharach, Boppard, Braubach and Cochem). Again, would you recommend a base town or two in this region? Mainz, perhaps?"
Not Mainz (a nice city but a bit far from the scenic area most folks want to see) but yes, one central base town like Boppard (a fine town itself, lots of dining and lodging options) is just right for outings. Boppard is...
- near Cochem and Burg Eltz on the Mosel
- near St. Goar, Oberwesel, and Bacharach
- near Bingen and Rüdesheim, the south end of the scenic area - not too far from Linz am Rhein, Bonn, and Remagen to the north for day trips.
If Trier is important I'd go with two bases - Cochem plus any of the west bank Rhine villages as a second base. Trier would make day trips pretty long from a single Rhine village.
The VRM 3-day mini-group ticket gives you 3 days for the price of 2. It's €43.60 for 2-5 persons and gives you access to all the towns mentioned ends of this region; Bingen, Rüdesheim, and Bacharach in the south, Bonn in the north, and Trier up the Mosel would require a different daypass called the Rheinland-Pfalz ticket (€27/day for two) OR the VRM mini-group ticket + an add-on fare of a few Euros. There's also a 1-day VRM mini-group ticket (€21.80/2-5.) No matter your choice of destinations, there's a local pass that will get you there reasonably. All of these are available from ticket machines in the area at any time - no pre-purchase necessary - so you can change plans on a dime if you want.
Ticket details are here:
http://www.vrminfo.de/en/tickets-and...eisure-ticket/
You'll find maps of the VRM coverage and of the Rheinland-Pfalz ticket coverage at the above site.
If you are interested in seeing Mainz, the Rheinland-Pfalz day pass gets you there and back from Boppard. Mainz is also a very good overnight spot after/before FRA flights.
Area information:
http://www.welterbe-mittelrheintal.d...php?id=274&L=3
http://www.welterbe-mittelrheintal.d...php?id=288&L=3
http://flyhahn.com/regions/romantic-...te-germany.htm
Cochem: http://www.ferienland-cochem.de/sights.htm
Falconry photos at Reichsburg in Cochem: http://www.falknerei-reichsburg-coch...vorfuhrung.htm
Burg Eltz: www.burg-eltz.de
Marksburg: www.marksburg.de
Linz am Rhein: http://www.linz.de/pdf/Linz_Prospekt_2007.pdf
Remagen Peace Museum (WW II): www.bruecke-remagen.de
Not Mainz (a nice city but a bit far from the scenic area most folks want to see) but yes, one central base town like Boppard (a fine town itself, lots of dining and lodging options) is just right for outings. Boppard is...
- near Cochem and Burg Eltz on the Mosel
- near St. Goar, Oberwesel, and Bacharach
- near Bingen and Rüdesheim, the south end of the scenic area - not too far from Linz am Rhein, Bonn, and Remagen to the north for day trips.
If Trier is important I'd go with two bases - Cochem plus any of the west bank Rhine villages as a second base. Trier would make day trips pretty long from a single Rhine village.
The VRM 3-day mini-group ticket gives you 3 days for the price of 2. It's €43.60 for 2-5 persons and gives you access to all the towns mentioned ends of this region; Bingen, Rüdesheim, and Bacharach in the south, Bonn in the north, and Trier up the Mosel would require a different daypass called the Rheinland-Pfalz ticket (€27/day for two) OR the VRM mini-group ticket + an add-on fare of a few Euros. There's also a 1-day VRM mini-group ticket (€21.80/2-5.) No matter your choice of destinations, there's a local pass that will get you there reasonably. All of these are available from ticket machines in the area at any time - no pre-purchase necessary - so you can change plans on a dime if you want.
Ticket details are here:
http://www.vrminfo.de/en/tickets-and...eisure-ticket/
You'll find maps of the VRM coverage and of the Rheinland-Pfalz ticket coverage at the above site.
If you are interested in seeing Mainz, the Rheinland-Pfalz day pass gets you there and back from Boppard. Mainz is also a very good overnight spot after/before FRA flights.
Area information:
http://www.welterbe-mittelrheintal.d...php?id=274&L=3
http://www.welterbe-mittelrheintal.d...php?id=288&L=3
http://flyhahn.com/regions/romantic-...te-germany.htm
Cochem: http://www.ferienland-cochem.de/sights.htm
Falconry photos at Reichsburg in Cochem: http://www.falknerei-reichsburg-coch...vorfuhrung.htm
Burg Eltz: www.burg-eltz.de
Marksburg: www.marksburg.de
Linz am Rhein: http://www.linz.de/pdf/Linz_Prospekt_2007.pdf
Remagen Peace Museum (WW II): www.bruecke-remagen.de
May 21st, 2014, 07:20 PM
#23
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What I appreciate about the base-town + day pass strategy...
If you have great bases with lots of day trip options, you can...
1.) pre-plan a certain number of days in each base.
2.) determine your major travel legs - even if you aren't yet sure which towns to cut.
3.) make itinerary changes during your stay in those base towns based on weather, personal matters, etc. Since you can buy day passes as you go, if you choose to drop a planned outing, you aren't left with extra railpass days you paid for in advance.
4.) avoid packing/unpacking all the time; travel less frequently with bags.
5.) get to know each base town a little better than if you were just visiting that town then moving on to the next one.
If you have great bases with lots of day trip options, you can...
1.) pre-plan a certain number of days in each base.
2.) determine your major travel legs - even if you aren't yet sure which towns to cut.
3.) make itinerary changes during your stay in those base towns based on weather, personal matters, etc. Since you can buy day passes as you go, if you choose to drop a planned outing, you aren't left with extra railpass days you paid for in advance.
4.) avoid packing/unpacking all the time; travel less frequently with bags.
5.) get to know each base town a little better than if you were just visiting that town then moving on to the next one.
May 22nd, 2014, 05:40 AM
#24
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I merely pointed out to you, with examples, how inaccurate you are when you say that railpasses have "no restrictions.">
We are talking about trains - railways and except for reservations being required on a handful of ICE Sprinter trains and the Thalys Cologne to Belgium there are no restrictions on what trains you can take. U-Bahns are trains but are not run by the DB - so for DB trains you can hop on any train anytime - we are talking about apples and oranges here.
Railpasses have nearly no restrictions on trains run by DB and other operators too like Meridian and no matter how you want to twist it that is a fact.
We are talking about trains - railways and except for reservations being required on a handful of ICE Sprinter trains and the Thalys Cologne to Belgium there are no restrictions on what trains you can take. U-Bahns are trains but are not run by the DB - so for DB trains you can hop on any train anytime - we are talking about apples and oranges here.
Railpasses have nearly no restrictions on trains run by DB and other operators too like Meridian and no matter how you want to twist it that is a fact.
May 22nd, 2014, 10:50 AM
#25
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Yes, it pretty much does. But several local/regional day passes permit exploration of certain areas within neighboring countries as well, including France, Austria and the Czech Republic, areas that would cost much more to visit if you bought a 2-country railpass.>
did you know that for a cheap add on to your pass you can go to Prague and places in some nearby countries - fairly new as of last year so you may not know that but now they can go to other countries - Salzburg of course being a German train station for tarifaction purposes as it always has been.
A German Railpass can also be used in Austria between Garmisch and Reutte and onto Germany. And can get you to Basel, Switzerland.
did you know that for a cheap add on to your pass you can go to Prague and places in some nearby countries - fairly new as of last year so you may not know that but now they can go to other countries - Salzburg of course being a German train station for tarifaction purposes as it always has been.
A German Railpass can also be used in Austria between Garmisch and Reutte and onto Germany. And can get you to Basel, Switzerland.
May 22nd, 2014, 06:14 PM
#26
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Russ - Totally with you on the base town + day pass strategy. Thank you so much - you've given me a lot to work with, and I really, really appreciate it! You can bet I'll be printing out this whole thread to use as a resource.
May 22nd, 2014, 06:27 PM
#27
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"...there are no restrictions on what trains you can take."
You are repeating the obvious and the already repeated. At least you've made the topic clear - it's railpasses, not just trains.
Since you value repetition, here are the limitations and restrictions of railpasses for you here again:
Does a railpass restrict you to trains? Yes, it pretty much does. But many local passes, FYI, allow the use of buses, trams, ferries, and the U-Bahn.
Does a German railpass restrict travel to Germany?
Yes, it pretty much does. But several local/regional day passes permit exploration of certain areas within neighboring countries as well, including France, Austria and the Czech Republic, areas that would cost much more to visit if you bought a 2-country railpass.
Railpasses have no hours restrictions. Do local/regional passes have hours restrictions? Often they do on weekdays, but generally, weekend hours are just as free of restriction as railpasses. And sometimes, as in the case of the Nuremberg area Tagesticket Plus, there are no restrictions on weekdays either.
Do railpasses bought for a certain number of travel days restrict you to the # of travel days you have paid for? Absolutely. But some local/regional passes allow you to use a one-day pass on two consecutive days under certain circumstances. Others give you a free 3rd day if you buy 2 days.
"We are talking about trains..." Well, railpasses limit users essentially to trains - it is indeed a shame. But the alternatives to railpasses are multifaceted. So I don't really know how to please you hear unless I simply hush up about the alternatives and the additional options they open up to travelers.
Actually, it would really be best if we just stop, OK? - I just can't find a wavelength to your planet, and you don't have one to mine.
You are repeating the obvious and the already repeated. At least you've made the topic clear - it's railpasses, not just trains.
Since you value repetition, here are the limitations and restrictions of railpasses for you here again:
Does a railpass restrict you to trains? Yes, it pretty much does. But many local passes, FYI, allow the use of buses, trams, ferries, and the U-Bahn.
Does a German railpass restrict travel to Germany?
Yes, it pretty much does. But several local/regional day passes permit exploration of certain areas within neighboring countries as well, including France, Austria and the Czech Republic, areas that would cost much more to visit if you bought a 2-country railpass.
Railpasses have no hours restrictions. Do local/regional passes have hours restrictions? Often they do on weekdays, but generally, weekend hours are just as free of restriction as railpasses. And sometimes, as in the case of the Nuremberg area Tagesticket Plus, there are no restrictions on weekdays either.
Do railpasses bought for a certain number of travel days restrict you to the # of travel days you have paid for? Absolutely. But some local/regional passes allow you to use a one-day pass on two consecutive days under certain circumstances. Others give you a free 3rd day if you buy 2 days.
"We are talking about trains..." Well, railpasses limit users essentially to trains - it is indeed a shame. But the alternatives to railpasses are multifaceted. So I don't really know how to please you hear unless I simply hush up about the alternatives and the additional options they open up to travelers.
Actually, it would really be best if we just stop, OK? - I just can't find a wavelength to your planet, and you don't have one to mine.
May 22nd, 2014, 07:01 PM
#28
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a...loud: Once you line up your base towns, you'll have to connect them with tickets or railpasses, of course. Post your itinerary with those base towns listed as specifically as possible if you need help with those longer trips.
May 22nd, 2014, 07:28 PM
#29
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PalenQ:
"A German Railpass can also be used in Austria between Garmisch and Reutte and onto Germany."
PalenQ, I'm sure you're still looking, but so far you haven't quoted me where I said that a railpass for a...loud is "out" and that daypasses have no restrictions. Once you find those comments, feel free to post them.
Also, feel free to post the evidence that the German railpass is valid between Garmisch and Reutte (a route that is covered by the Bayern ticket.) This route is not listed on the German railpass DB flyer and it is not included on the flyer map as a valid route either.
http://www.bahn.com/i/view/mdb/bahni...ilpass2014.pdf
Now, that doesn't mean it's absolutely not included, necessarily - maybe the flyer is incomplete. At this point, you don't need any more wildly inaccurate statements, so if you don't mind, please report how you know that this is so, hopefully with a link to that information. It's quite a beautiful route, and if it is included, that's a plus for railpass users who end up near there, a plus that I'd like to pass on to others, but only with some degree of confidence that it's true.
"A German Railpass can also be used in Austria between Garmisch and Reutte and onto Germany."
PalenQ, I'm sure you're still looking, but so far you haven't quoted me where I said that a railpass for a...loud is "out" and that daypasses have no restrictions. Once you find those comments, feel free to post them.
Also, feel free to post the evidence that the German railpass is valid between Garmisch and Reutte (a route that is covered by the Bayern ticket.) This route is not listed on the German railpass DB flyer and it is not included on the flyer map as a valid route either.
http://www.bahn.com/i/view/mdb/bahni...ilpass2014.pdf
Now, that doesn't mean it's absolutely not included, necessarily - maybe the flyer is incomplete. At this point, you don't need any more wildly inaccurate statements, so if you don't mind, please report how you know that this is so, hopefully with a link to that information. It's quite a beautiful route, and if it is included, that's a plus for railpass users who end up near there, a plus that I'd like to pass on to others, but only with some degree of confidence that it's true.
May 23rd, 2014, 03:39 AM
#30
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a...loud: Once you line up your base towns, you'll have to connect them with tickets or railpasses, of course. Post your itinerary with those base towns listed as specifically as possible if you need help with those longer trips.>
I agree - one mistake I made was to look at the OP first list and thinking there are several inter-region long-distance trains - I did not realize it was a random listing and yes if you go by baby steps from region to region and day trip around then local passes may well be better.
My original point was that for the typical person doing a Frankfort-Munich-Berlin-rhine- etc loop a handful of 29 or 39 euro tickets for those long-distance trains would be about the same price as a pass that just lets you show up at the station and hop on - not pre-book in stone weeks in advance and save very little or no money.
The Garmisch-Reutte line is covered by the pass for the exact same reason a Bavrian Pass is valid on this Austrian line - its served by German trains too - going from one part of Germany to another. that is unless that changed in the past year because not long ago I used a pass on it.
I agree - one mistake I made was to look at the OP first list and thinking there are several inter-region long-distance trains - I did not realize it was a random listing and yes if you go by baby steps from region to region and day trip around then local passes may well be better.
My original point was that for the typical person doing a Frankfort-Munich-Berlin-rhine- etc loop a handful of 29 or 39 euro tickets for those long-distance trains would be about the same price as a pass that just lets you show up at the station and hop on - not pre-book in stone weeks in advance and save very little or no money.
The Garmisch-Reutte line is covered by the pass for the exact same reason a Bavrian Pass is valid on this Austrian line - its served by German trains too - going from one part of Germany to another. that is unless that changed in the past year because not long ago I used a pass on it.
May 23rd, 2014, 03:15 PM
#32
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The sources I've seen disagree with you.>
I would assume that the Orange Country Register would have the right story:
http://xfinityconnect.mail.comcast.net/
Neuschwanstein was the major inspiration befind Disneyland's original Sleeping Beauty Castle in Anaheim. Usse in France's Loire Valley is often cited as an inspiration as well as Segovia Spain's castle too but I think Russ is right.
http://www.parisdigest.com/withchild...pingbeauty.htm
I would assume that the Orange Country Register would have the right story:
http://xfinityconnect.mail.comcast.net/
Neuschwanstein was the major inspiration befind Disneyland's original Sleeping Beauty Castle in Anaheim. Usse in France's Loire Valley is often cited as an inspiration as well as Segovia Spain's castle too but I think Russ is right.
http://www.parisdigest.com/withchild...pingbeauty.htm
May 24th, 2014, 06:45 AM
#33
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The point: Railpasses have equipment restrictions; they restrict users to trains. You are not allowed to use local buses, trams, or the U-Bahn. Local daypasses like the Bayern Ticket routinely allow the use not only of trains, but of trams, buses, and U-Bahn as well.
Real travelers don't sleep in the station. In the real world, if they arrive at Nuremberg Hbf or Munich Hbf on a railpass, and need to get to their hotel by public transport, their railpass is suddenly useless>
Well an added perk of a railpass is that for the day you arrive in say Munich or Berlin or any large German city you can use the S-Bahns the rest of the day free of charge - and in Munich and Berlin for example S-Bahns go everywhere - so when you say rail travelers can't use their pass once they arrive in a city you are missing out on the vast S-Bahn systems that accept them - of course you would not use one of your flexible travel days on just city transport - no then you buy the regional pass or local city pass if traveling enough.
I extensively use S-Bahns in Munich and Berlin with my pass - Munich's S-Bahn goes right thru the heart of the city - close to where most folks will be staying and Berlin's vast S-Bahn system goes everywhere - no you can't take local buses and trams and U-Bahns because they are not part of the state railway system but to say a pass is useless after arriving in the station is IMO misstating the case.
Real travelers don't sleep in the station. In the real world, if they arrive at Nuremberg Hbf or Munich Hbf on a railpass, and need to get to their hotel by public transport, their railpass is suddenly useless>
Well an added perk of a railpass is that for the day you arrive in say Munich or Berlin or any large German city you can use the S-Bahns the rest of the day free of charge - and in Munich and Berlin for example S-Bahns go everywhere - so when you say rail travelers can't use their pass once they arrive in a city you are missing out on the vast S-Bahn systems that accept them - of course you would not use one of your flexible travel days on just city transport - no then you buy the regional pass or local city pass if traveling enough.
I extensively use S-Bahns in Munich and Berlin with my pass - Munich's S-Bahn goes right thru the heart of the city - close to where most folks will be staying and Berlin's vast S-Bahn system goes everywhere - no you can't take local buses and trams and U-Bahns because they are not part of the state railway system but to say a pass is useless after arriving in the station is IMO misstating the case.
May 24th, 2014, 08:37 AM
#34
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<German Rail Pass Extension
High speed train ICE, Germany
Explore more of Europe by adding the German Rail Pass Extension to your order for just $49 (2nd class) or $89 (1st class).
Buy the Extension in addition to your German Rail Pass and visit these exciting cities: Venice, Verona, Bologna, Bolzano in Italy, Brussels in Belgium, Innsbruck in Austria, Prague in Czech Republic and Wroclaw, Katowice and Krakow in Poland.>
Russ - to update you on how a German Railpass can indeed be valid in neighboring and even in the case of Verona and Venice in Italy - in regards to your comment that a German Railpass cannot extend into other countries.
High speed train ICE, Germany
Explore more of Europe by adding the German Rail Pass Extension to your order for just $49 (2nd class) or $89 (1st class).
Buy the Extension in addition to your German Rail Pass and visit these exciting cities: Venice, Verona, Bologna, Bolzano in Italy, Brussels in Belgium, Innsbruck in Austria, Prague in Czech Republic and Wroclaw, Katowice and Krakow in Poland.>
Russ - to update you on how a German Railpass can indeed be valid in neighboring and even in the case of Verona and Venice in Italy - in regards to your comment that a German Railpass cannot extend into other countries.
May 25th, 2014, 07:42 AM
#35
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The aspect of being able to go to say Venice or Krakow for $49 in conjunction with a German Pass could tip the balance in some cases in favor of the pass - another factor to add to the mix if travels involve more than Germany.
May 25th, 2014, 07:50 AM
#36
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"And thanks for the heads up on Baden-Baden!"
One person's negative opinion of Baden-Baden does mean that everyone has a negative opinion of Baden-Baden. We find it a lovely, relaxing place with wonderful gardens, an outstanding modern art museum, excellent free outdoor music concerts (and one of the best concert halls in Europe for paid performances). We've been there many, many times, always enjoyed ourselves, and the casino has never been any part of my time spent there.
One person's negative opinion of Baden-Baden does mean that everyone has a negative opinion of Baden-Baden. We find it a lovely, relaxing place with wonderful gardens, an outstanding modern art museum, excellent free outdoor music concerts (and one of the best concert halls in Europe for paid performances). We've been there many, many times, always enjoyed ourselves, and the casino has never been any part of my time spent there.
May 25th, 2014, 09:14 AM
#37
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"Russ - to update you on how a German Railpass can indeed be valid in neighboring and even in the case of Verona and Venice in Italy - in regards to your comment that a German Railpass cannot extend into other countries. The aspect of being able to go to say Venice or Krakow for $49 in conjunction with a German Pass could tip the balance in some cases in favor of the pass..."
Obviously, a German railpass is essentially for Germany. You cannot reach Italy on a German railpass alone; only the purchase of an extension allows transit into other countries.
But the real cost isn't just the price of the extension (€49 - NOT $49!!) because the trip also costs you a railpass day.
If you have 5 train travel days within Germany, and you need to buy a 6-day 2nd class railpass with extension for a trip to Venice, the price of the extra railpass day is €23 more. That's €72 - US $98 - total with the extension, and while you CAN use the extension to return on another day to Germany as well at no additional cost, it's another long journey back to Germany, and anyone ending the trip in Venice or continuing elsewhere might want to just check the DB saver fare prices too. You can get a direct train from Munich to Venice for €49 - which is €23 cheaper than the total cost of the extra railpass day + extension.
So actually, if you've ALREADY opted for a German railpass AND you plan a rail trip to Venice (or wherever) AND back to Germany, then the extension might be a good choice. Otherwise, I don't think it's that much of a game-changer for someone weighing the railpass/p2p decision.
Obviously, a German railpass is essentially for Germany. You cannot reach Italy on a German railpass alone; only the purchase of an extension allows transit into other countries.
But the real cost isn't just the price of the extension (€49 - NOT $49!!) because the trip also costs you a railpass day.
If you have 5 train travel days within Germany, and you need to buy a 6-day 2nd class railpass with extension for a trip to Venice, the price of the extra railpass day is €23 more. That's €72 - US $98 - total with the extension, and while you CAN use the extension to return on another day to Germany as well at no additional cost, it's another long journey back to Germany, and anyone ending the trip in Venice or continuing elsewhere might want to just check the DB saver fare prices too. You can get a direct train from Munich to Venice for €49 - which is €23 cheaper than the total cost of the extra railpass day + extension.
So actually, if you've ALREADY opted for a German railpass AND you plan a rail trip to Venice (or wherever) AND back to Germany, then the extension might be a good choice. Otherwise, I don't think it's that much of a game-changer for someone weighing the railpass/p2p decision.
May 27th, 2014, 07:36 AM
#38
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But it is a factor to keep in mind - I assume but have not checked the fine print that you could hop any train anytime - a German train going to those places and then for 35 euros for an at-will ticket is a great deal it seems - yeh you can get a discounted ticket for less than the cost of an extra day plus 45 euros but the benefit of a pass is for those who want total flexibility and are willing to pay more for that - others like to have everything settled as well way in advance and will not change or worry about making that train, etc.
Though since you get a return journey perhaps - I have no checked fine print - go to say Venice and return from another city covered - could be of more value to folks starting and ending trips in Germany - but I think Russ is right - it is not a great deal for one ways and especially for those willing to book a deep discounted ticket way in advance.
Though since you get a return journey perhaps - I have no checked fine print - go to say Venice and return from another city covered - could be of more value to folks starting and ending trips in Germany - but I think Russ is right - it is not a great deal for one ways and especially for those willing to book a deep discounted ticket way in advance.
May 27th, 2014, 12:11 PM
#40
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I also loved Baden-Baden - a very unique place - once the watering hold of Europe's rich and famous and royals the ornate old casino still hops - you can tour it before it opens - in late morning the tours are - just a lovely park-like setting - yes Baden-Baden to me is something unique and superb - I would not spend days there but one day - even day tripping in would be superb.
