nessundorma

Rufus,

I wouldn't even set foot in Olive Garden. Since I'm in New York and New Jersey, I get a lot of Italian-American food, although even that is disappearing now that restaurant and deli owners have found that Americans will eat their nonna's recipes.

One of the major differences for me between food in Italy and Italian-American food is the difference in the pasta. Italian pasta isn't as soft as American pasta, even when American pasta isn't overcooked. Italian pasta is chewier. There is no real gnocchi outside of Italy (or even outside of Roma!) as far as I'm concerned.

I also disagree about the pizza. I find true Sicilian and Roman pizza vastly superior to anything I've tasted in New York, and although I don't care for true Neopolitan pizza, I never tasted such a thing in America. What is served is Napoli is unlike anything Americans call "pizza."

Of course there have always been Italian immigrants who opened up restaurants and if you went on holidays or got to know them, they would give you the real stuff. But with the exception of one resto in San Francisco that served up chicken livers in red sauce over spaghetti, I can't think of any Italian-American dish that I like. Chicken marsala, scampi and clams linguine here just is a pretty dismal affair.

tcreath

nessundorma, we really liked the German cuisine while in Germany, but we have tried several German restaurants in the states and it just isn't the same. Usually the schnitzels are tough and the spatzel is starchy. Trust me, the food in Germany is much better than the sad excuse for German food I've had here in the states!

I also agree about Italian cuisine. I live in St. Louis, and we have a rather well-known Italian area called The Hill that is filled with great Italian restaurants. While I really enjoy eating at most of them, I wouldn't say that anything I've eaten there has even been remotely similar to what I've had in Italy. I think that, for the most part, its the use of regional ingredients in Italy that makes the food superior. Italian restaurants here are geared to American's tastes instead of being true Italian cuisine. That being said, I did stumble across some great gnocci, one of my favorite dishes in Italy, while in Vegas of all places!

Tracy

nessundorma

Thanks for that encouragement! I will only be a few days in Berlin, but I hope to sink my teeth into something tasty.

I have a favorite Italian restaurant in New York called Il Girasole, which is a little pricey, but if you ask the waiters what is good that evening, you get some very tasty stuff. I also have a couple of deli owners who order lots of good stuff for me from Italy. Salted anchovies with Jersey tomatoes isn't half bad.

I've heard Vegas is knocking itself to be a great eating destination. I'm still never going back, but last time I was there I had a fantastic Salvadoran stew with a side dish of crispy fried yucca that cost me nothing. Now that's something I can't get in New York.

hsv

nessundorma,

I don't think there are any misunderstandings. You appear to have a clear pricture of what you are going to be getting and I did try my best to give you some recommendations of where to head in Berlin to find something that would cater to your desires. I do applaud you for such a firm conviction.

I do stand by my assessment that German cuisine, particularly if executed by a "new generation of chefs motivated to change habits" (as you put it) will incorporate elements of other cuisine styles as well. I just don't happen to think that that would be "great food that did not make it across the pond" - as the menus of well known chefs in the U.S. do excactly feature what their peers in Germany are likely to have on their menus. Those U.S. chefs just do not label their restaurants as featuring German cuisine.
And of course I will admit that there are other cuisine styles represented in Puck's menu. If you did not find anything German among his appetizers and salads, this might be due to the fact that neither Appetizers nor Salads would be representative of typically German cuisine. A German meal would traditionally start with some soup (Puck's soups do -among others- include some German influenced recipes). His main courses, however, do feature a selection of German dishes as outlined before. The same goes for his desserts.

If you'd "rather eat what Germans consider their finest cuisine, just to try it" you might want to warm up to the idea that it's not all about pork knuckles anymore.

Just take a look at the menu of Restaurant Facil, featuring a Michelin stars and having a young German chef performing at a high level:

http://www.facil-berlin.de/englisch/menue.htm

It clearly does not offer products commonly thought of as typically German - but still features what would nowadays be considered German cuisine.

Last but not least, it still escapes me why you'd be wanting to skip the "Curry-Wurst" in Berlin - if there is a regional specialty (at least the Berliners claim to have invented it; some Hamburgians claim the fame for their city referring to the fact that most spices in Germany have been imported through Hamburg) that would be it - apart from it being not exactly gourmet food.

If my efforts thus far were unsuitable for your needs, it's quite alright with me and I do wish you good luck in finding what you are looking for (whatever that may be).

nessundorma

hsv,

I seem to have offended you and exactly why I'm not sure. When you offered the Wolfgang Puck link, I looked through it, starting with his meat entrees. Here are the first items, exactly as they appear on his site:

Asian Burgers
Beef Sate with Spicy Szechwan Sauce
Beef Stew With Winter Vegetables
Beef with Pickled Vegetables
Braised Short Ribs
Catalonian Fire Roasted Lamb Rack
Chinese Duck with Plum Sauce

OK?

It wasn't until you came back and accused me of being "malicious" that I went back and looked at other categories (appetizers and salads). Now you tell me that these are not "typically German" -- but you were the one who directed me to Wolfgang Puck's menus in the first place!

But I still don't know why we are arguing. Because of this thread, I did some internet research, and I came up with a site, whose contents I posted here, that listed Eisbein and Black Forest Cake as classic Berliner dishes. This wasn't *my* idea. It was the result of my asking questions.

I looked at the menu for Restaurant Facil. The food looks very appealing, but I will say that it is what I would expect to find on a London menu (and not just because it is in English). What elements of it do you particularly associate with German cuisine?

I've read several glowing reviews of currywurst, but it sounds unappealing to me. Perhaps when I see it I'll change my mind and try some. I take it that it's not a very expensive experiment. (Eisbein sounds a lot more appealing; so does snail soup.)

I'll thank you again for the restaurant info, and will certainly take it with me to Berlin! I appreciate it.

tcreath

nessundorma, I was in Vegas for a conference and, as much as I loved my gnocci, I will never choose Vegas as a tourist destination for myself so I will probably never have it again, but it was surprisingly delicious!

My experience with German food has only been in Bavaria. I will be interested to read your comments about the food in Berlin when you return. I hope you have a fabulous trip!

Tracy

hsv

nessundorma,

no offense taken - and no offense meant ;-). I would not even think that we are arguing - I think we are debating a topic that is very hard to grasp. In these days of globalisation most sophisticated chefs incorporate elements from other cuisines in the creation of their dishes. And often one has to look a bit closer to see the regional influence in a meal that may be reduced to the use of certain typical and locally available products.
This may have led to improvement in some instances as traditional dishes seem to be often prepared in a bit lighter and thus easier to digest variations. On the other hand it is a bit sad as - exactly as you mentioned - very often a menu in London will be hard to distinguish from a menu in Berlin or elsewhere.
If you are referring to Facil's menu, I would think that a marinated calf's head would have some German roots (although I would not touch it), black feather fowl with lentil (kohlrabi) and dumplings would qualify as German, as would the variations of veal and venison. Sole is also a product traditionally being used in North German cuisine (even though they call it "Dover Sole" - there are some close links to the Anglo-Saxons, after all - and some industrious fishermen, too;-) ).

The problem might be that if you are looking for the finest German chefs preparing what they claim to be the finest German cuisine, they are very likely to serve variations of German dishes that differ a bit more from the original recipe. Although there recently seems to have appeared a trend that German local delicacies are being rediscovered. I could guide you to two restaurants in Hamburg that would perfectly match that trend (one of them has been Michelin starred for more than a decade, but I unfortunately am not aware of any such in Berlin).

The restaurants I listed for you would provide you with some carefully but traditionally prepared dishes, even though they would be nowhere near Michelin honours. However, they serve German / Austrian cuisine in an appealing fashion, which I personally like much better than those gourmet variations. Particularly Lutter & Wegner (which have become a mini-chain with outfits all over town and in Munich, too, as mentioned by SuzieC, and Hamburg scheduled to open in the near future) would most probably give you a good impression. I like the main outfit at Gendarmenmarkt best.
Zur Letzten Instanz would also be worth a try, although I do not care too much for its surroundings, but that should be irrelevant during a meal and other posters here have a different view of this, as I am aware.

I will concede that there indeed may have been some misunderstandings between the two of us and hope that this helps a bit to settle any perceived argument. It is impossible to argue about taste anywhere (and I would much rather have a curry-wurst than the Eisbein, which sends shivers down my spine), but I do wish you good luck with your choice of restaurants and foods and do hope that you thoroughly enjoy your visit to Berlin - even after sinking your teeth into that glibbery substance by the name of Eisbein !

bellacqui

I did not read this whole thread, just skimmed it very quickly. I think that Germany has some of the best food in Europe, for a variety of reasons. Das Weisse Haus in Hamburg is the home of celebrity chef Tim Melzer, buddy of Jamie Oliver, and has brought highlight to the fact that German food now means international, it means fresh, it means thoughtfully and creatively prepared.

I was often told in Germany that a good cook is recognized by how they make their bratkartoffel. There is as much that goes into good Bratkartoffel as there goes into an excellent Boglonese. There is excellence to be found in Grünkohl, in Sauerbraten, in all of the traditional German dishes. There is also a new generation which has sprung up, which has travelled, which has recognized taste immigration: great imbiss food exsists in Germany in mass - Hamburg's Bok in the Schanzenviertel, the Stehimbiss, is just one example.

Could I eat well for 30 bucks a meal in Germany? I could eat like a queen for that money. You just need to look around. It's possible in Munich. It is totally doable in Berlin, Koeln, Bremen, Frankfurt, and of course, the free hafen city of Hamburg.

I love the restaurant scene in many German cities, it is international and very tasty. Anyone going into Germany with an open mind will find the same.

ggreen

We loved eating in Germany: German food, Turkish, Vietnamese, you name it. As another poster mentioned about pizza, it did seem that corn came on just about everything veggie - but it was good for a little laugh whenever a salad arrived... Otherwise, salads had a wonderful abundance of fresh vegetables. As we were staying in Hamburg, we had a lot of great seafood, everything from Nordsee "fast food" to some wonderful dinners.

nessundorma, I think you and I probably have very different views of NYC dining - I could name a half-dozen great burgers in town - but I did want to mention that there are (finally) some newer, casual German and Austrian restaurants that you may find worth checking out. I agree that for ages there were only the old Germantown-type spots that no one visited. Now there are a couple of hip beergardens (Zum Scheider (sp?) on Ave C, and a huge one in Astoria); Hallo Berlin for wieners and schnitzel in Hell's Kitchen; and a lovely Austrian place called Café Steinhof if you venture out here to Park Slope. And there may be others I haven't discovered yet!

nessundorma

hsv,

Glad we cleared that up! I really didn't mean to have my direct questions be taken as anything other than questions. I've always assumed German cuisine had to be more varied, interesting and sophisticated that what gets called German food here in America.

What is it about the surroundings of the Zur Letzten Instanz that you don't like? (I think you've given me a pretty good picture of what puts you off about Eisbein, and now I am wary too.)

bellacqui,

What are Bratkartoffel and Grünkohl? I'm really jazzed to think we can eat well for 30e per person in Berlin. Do you have any restaurant recommendations? I think I'll be staying in the Mitte area.

ggreen,

Name those NYC burger joints, please! I've been meaning to go to Hallo Berlin for some time. Anything in particular that you recommend there?

hsv

bellacqui,

another excellent summary of information on Germany - it's a pity you had to move isn't it ?

Actually I had Tim Maelzer and the Weisses Haus here in HH on my mind when I mentioned that there is a current trend to rediscover local specialties. The place is totally overrun with people these days, though. The happy days of indulging in Sunday roasts and slacking through a lazy Sunday at his place before his massive TV presence are over, unfortunately.

nessundorma,

I agree with bellacqui about Bratkartoffeln. They are a bit more prevalent in Northern Germany and consitst basically of boiled and then peeled potatoes from the day before that are cut in thin slices and fried in a pan with some bacon (and if you wish onions) added. There are a couple of philosophies on how they should turn out - I like them browned and slightly crispy.
They go really well with some raw and smoked ham, some eggs and a few pickles - a Bauernfruehstueck (farmers' breakfast) - and, of course, a fresh Jever Pilsener. This, however, is not gourmet food, but just delicious IMHO. Nothing locally special for Berlin, though.

nessundorma

Thanks! And what is Grünkohl?

hsv

Gruenkohl is a grassy sort of cabbage. It translates to kale in English, although I doubt anybody outside Germany would eat it. Smells awful. Looks like a cow's favourite.

nessundorma

Mmmm. I like strong greens. Green kale. I'll look for it!

hsv

nessundorma,

Gruenkohl is typically a winter food - and is only served during winter months and after the first frost has hit. As you've got only 8 weeks to go, it's going to be close. You must be hoping for an early winter - but please spare me that sort of weather!

bellacqui

Although I must say, Kohl and Pinkel, when eaten in Bremen, Fischerhude, or Warpswede, for example, is excellent...The Landgasthaus Warpswede (I believe that is the name of the place, or something very similar) makes a wonderful traditional Grünkohl. It was one of our favorite things to do, to go there in November, do some antiquing and then have a huge lunch!! Nessundorma, the kale is cooked in what amounts to fatback. You need a shot of something strong after eating it!!

HSV --- We used to hang out at DWH for coffee in the afternoon way back when. Just for fun, do you know La Petit Cafe in Eppendorf and Lühmanns Teestube in Blanekense? My favorite cake places, never again will I eat such fabulous cake (until I come back to visit this winter )

bellacqui

Sorry, no La before Petit Cafe--

ira

>when i got my veggie pizza it had corn on it. Who puts corn on pizza? <

Couldn't be any weirder than pizza with French fries on top that we saw in Italy.

>The more basic problem is: American food isn't very good.<

My dear Sir,

You just don't know where to eat.

Kansas City or Chicago for grilled steaks.

Maryland for crabs - steamed, crab cakes or soft shell - stuffed ham, beaten biscuits, fried chicken.

New England for lobster, clams and other seafood.

Cajun and Creole cooking in Louisiana.

Florida stone crabs and amberjack.

Georgia shrimp, fried chicken, biscuits and gravy, grits, corn bread and pudding, buttermilk pie.

Greens throughout the South.

BBQ in North Carolina, Tennessee, Missouri and Texas - each different.

Fish and seafood of all sorts in Washington and Oregon.

Mexican/American in New Mexico, Arizona, Texas and California. I found it better than the "authentic" cooking in Mexico.

Just to name a few.

nessundorma

Sorry, Ira, I stand by statement. With the exception of seven states I've been everywhere in America and tried the local American specialties, in all the places you've mentioned, too. The fact is that a lot of American food is just encased in fat of one sort or another, and the punishment that vegetables get is terrible. Some of the worst steak I had was in Kansas, actually. Some of the most rubbery and tasteless seafood in the Northeast. (Seattle is good, I'll give you that.) Los Angeles and New York (and probably now Los Vegas) are the still the best places to eat.

If you want to eat well in America, it's best to stick to ethnic food made by immigrants.

J_Correa

Damn Ira - you're making me hungry