tcreath

DH and I were planning a SE Asia trip for next year but decided on Greece instead, partially because of our great interest in ancient history and partially because TexasAggie's trip report is making me insanely jealous and only strengthened my desire to go. So here goes my questions:

Our desire is to go in September or October of next year (I'm thinking way ahead because we have two trips scheduled between now and then, and we will be using miles for our flights so will be booking early). We plan on spending most of our time on the mainland, probably heading to the Pelopennese after spending several nights in Athens. We will have a car and will be driving. After reading my huge Fodors guidebook (talk about information overload!), we are thinking about visiting the area around Thessalaniki as well. The city itself sounds interesting, and there are some historical sights nearby that we are interested in. I don't see much information about this area, so I would like to get a general consensus of it. Any thoughts? How difficult is it to get from the Pelopennese to Thessaloniki by car? Are there some interesting sights to see along the way?

We would like to visit one island if we have time. We aren't "beachy" people, if that helps. We would like something relaxing, with a few interesting sights that would keep us entertained for two or three nights. We are thinking about Hydra or another island fairly close to the mainland. I heard that some of the islands near Thessaloniki are interesting (Poros, perhaps?). Any suggestions? We considered Crete, but the island looks too large and has way too many sights. I think that we would feel dissapointed with only a few days, as it seems like a wonderful place worthy of at least a week.

We have about two weeks overall.

Thanks so much for any/all help!
Tracy

PalQ

ttt

TexasAggie

Hi Tracy!

We just settled it that we are returning to Greece in the late spring of 2008 for another 2 week trip. We plan on hitting the northern part of the mainland for at least one full week b/c we didn't have enough time to see Meteora and Thessalaniki at all on this last trip. My main planning focus right now is the 2007 Family Germany/Austria trip but I am doing some preliminary research for the 2008 Greece Mainland Part II. I'll be sure to post any good tips I come across on this thread so y'all can evaluate if they work into your itinerary

As for your specific questions... the driving from Pelopennese to Thessaloniki is the only one I can answer at all. We didn't drive much further north than Delphi but we did notice that the road signs were MUCH better in the Pelopennese than they were anywhere north except in the immediate vicinity of Athens. You will definitely want to know the Greek alphabet and spelling of town names because the English signs were much fewer and further spaced apart. The condition of the roads was still excellent though, and my Michelin map shows some efficient-looking highways to Thessaloniki on which I'd assume the speed limit is at least 120 km/hr.

tcreath

Thank you for your reply! The whole country looks fascinating so we are going to have to do lots of planning to keep the itinerary at a nice, relaxed pace without trying to squeeze so much in. I think that trying to get to an island will be pushing it, so we will more than likely skip the islands this time around.

Did you enjoy driving around? Was it difficult? DH is kind of nervous about it, but then again he is always nervous about driving, although he usually finds out that it was unnecessary. I keep telling him that we actually drove through London...can anything be worse?!

We would like to visit the area around Thessaloniki mostly because we are interested in visiting the tomb of King Phillip II. The city itself doesn't sound like much fun to drive in, so I don't know how we would work around that. I would like to visit the city so we will have to figure that one out at a later date.

I'm sure you will have a wonderful trip! Every time I think about our Germany/Austria trip I get anxious to go back. We've been to Europe quite often, but overall that trip was probably our favorite. We just loved the relaxed feeling, the beautiful scenery, and the people. And of course having my daily fix of incredible chocolate croissants from local bakeries helped solidify the experience. I long to go back. We will probably head back to Switzerland in 2008, this time visiting the BO and the Lakes District, but I'd love to go back to Berchtesgaden, even if for just a few days.

Thanks again!
Tracy

TexasAggie

Hi Tracy,
When we planned our trip we decided to save the islands for the next trip because it seemed like there was just SO much to see on the mainland (plus we used FF miles to fly free in early May which isn't really the ideal island-hopping time of the year). We planned to thoroughly canvas Athens and the entire Pelopennese and go at least as far north as Meteora...

Well, we did see a lot in Athens but there are at least 3 museums and 1 major sight that we didn't get to visit. So we probably need another 2 to 3 full days there. In the northeastern area of the Pelopenesse (Argaloid plain - sp?), we still need to see Ancient Nemea, Ancient Tiryns, Ancient Isthmia, Heraion of Perachora (tiny), and Argos... and the entire area is also just littered with random other interesting ruins that are a few thousand years old! So we probably need at least another 5 days in that area (including one day to just relax in charming Nauplion)! We did fully see Olympia and Delphi and don't feel a pressing need to return to those sights, but we missed out on Monemvasia, Sparta, and the whole other southern part of the Pelopennese (which I estimate we need probably 3 to 4 days to see). There appeared to be a lot of interesting Byzantine-era ruins in the Lousios Gorge area that were likely worthy of at least a daytrip (we just drove through making a couple brief stops). And then there is the entire northern part of the mainland to consider which probably merits at least 5 to 7 days too (we also really want to see King Phillip II's tomb). So... all this to say that we probably still won't make it to the islands for this next trip (which we are hoping to stretch to be 15-17 days).

My thinking now (always subject to change though, of course!) is that we will combine the Greek Islands with a trip to Istanbul and Western Turkey in a year in which we can get away for at least 18 days and travel in June when the weather is a bit more predictable in the islands.

Whew! That is probably more information than you are looking for but maybe it will help y'all in your planning process somehow.

Driving in Greece is really very easy, we were pleasantly surprised. Greek drivers don't pay attention to the speed limit (translation - speed like crazy!), but they are super polite/patient about passing in general. We drove pretty slowly and we never encountered any road rage or drivers passing so badly they run you off the road. The road signs in/around Athens and the parts of the Pelopennese that we visited were great and we barely needed a map. Delphi was a bit more challenging in terms of good signs but we still found it easier than driving in Germany (which most people consider totally do-able). The one caveat to all this talk of easy and pleasant driving is that we didn't drive in the big cities except when on a major highway. We purposely picked up (and returned) our car at the Athens airport (we took the metro from our hotel back out there for 10&euro. The airport dumps you right out onto a highway and as long as you stay on it, you won't have to deal with getting lost in the maze of big city streets and traffic. Since Thessalaniki is such a big city I personally would be wary of driving in and out... maybe you could find a suburb to stay in and take the metro/bus in and out of town? Or perhaps you could fly into Athens and pick up your car at the airport, then drive around the mainland making your way north, then drop off the car at the Thessalaniki airport (if it is set up so that you can just take a straight-shot freeway in). Or vice versa. Just thoughts...

TexasAggie

P.S. If you are especially interested in King Phillip II, there is a pretty well preserved monument at Olympia that was built in his honor. We loved Olympia. It is a beautiful and calm and serene place... very easy to see why the ancients built a sanctuary there. But more on that in my trip report if I ever get that far! ;-)

tcreath

Wow! You've given me some great information! We will have 14 days in Greece and I don't think we will even scratch the surface of the Pelopennese in that time frame! I honestly didn't know about a lot of the sights you mentioned, and I'm certainly intrigued. I bought the new Fodors Greece guidebook, but I also want to get one that concentrates only on the mainland, as this book has a lot of info on the islands that we really don't need right now.

We are planning on basing ourselves in Nafplion to do some of the sightseeing around the area, as it does certainly sound charming!

I wish we could spend more time in Greece, but DH is adament about combining this trip with Cairo. It will be kind of crazy, but ever since he found out that we can get a direct flight from Athens to Cairo for under $200 he isn't budging. He really wants to see the pyramids. Not that I mind a bit, but I don't want to feel rushed in either location. and I would absolutely love to visit Turkey and Istanbul; before we found out about Cairo we were planning on combining this trip with several nights in Istanbul. Oh well...another time, another trip!

Thanks again for all the wonderful information you have provided, and for the hint on the King Phillip monument in Olympia!

Take care!
Tracy

Jojonana

Hi! I strongly suggest that you add a visit to the Mani and the Lousios gorge/mountain villages. We absolutely loved these two areas! We also really enjoyed our time in Nafplio. Make sure to go to Ta Fanaria Taverna around 2-3 pm to eat the BEST moussaka on the planet!

You can check my trip report called Back from the Peloponnese - A Trip Report! for more info on driving, distances, etc. I also have pictures posted on the Web.

flanneruk

Thessalonica is reasonably easy to drive in, with straight, one-way avenues. We found it almost painless to drive staight to our hotel from the countryside.

Thessalonica (which the Greeek government seems determined to get English-speakers to spell differently, as if it's any business of theirs how we speak our language) is also one of Europe's most unaccountably undervisited cities.

There's a reasonable summary of Greek Macedonia's many delights at http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...2&tid=34826690. There are far too many things worth seeing (and eating and drinking) in Greek Macedonia to waste time on a beach. However much time you've got, you should allow time for the city's Archaeological Museum. Already splendid (the gold stuff from Philip's tomb is now back at Vergina, but there's acres of gold from non-Vergina tombs). But due to have its extension opened next year.

You must also find time to check what's on display at the Agioritiki Estia, Egnatia 109. It's the closest most of us will ever get to seeing inside Mount Athos, but the guide books seem to ignore it.

Galerius' Palace in Navarino Square, still being excavated, is in few books but well worth seeing if you can explore. If a charming person comes up to you with a leaflet, it's not a flyer for a ripoff kebab stall. It's the excellent "this is what you can see of the excavations" handout they seem to give to anyone in the square showing an intelligent interest.

tcreath

Thank you both so much for your replies!
Planning this trip seems a little overwhelming, so its great to have the wonderful help of fodorites!

Jojonana, thank you for posting the link to your trip report. I'm going to check it out in a few minutes!

flanneruk, I'm happy for the confirmation that the Macedonia region is worth our time. I didn't realize that the spelling is Thessalonica, so thank you for the clarification. It sounds like a very interesting city, one that I wanted to visit as soon as I started reading about it. And thank you for the tip on Galerius' Palace. We like to seek out places that are not always on the tourism radar, so this sounds perfect. I'm going to research on all of the information that you gave me.

Thanks again!!
Tracy

murphy89

Jojonana! Those pictures are amazing! It so neat to see shots of places I've been though the lens of differnt travellers.

tcreath, outside of the southern Peloponnses, I haven't been to any of the places you mentioned. Macedonia was in my itinerary then when I was on the ground I got all foggy brained and went to Mykonos. I missed out on the following sites that I was really looking forward to:

1. Edessa - waterfalls
2. Prespa Lakes
3. Veringa Tombs
4. Kastoria
5. Zagorohoria Villages

You may want to look into these sites/towns - sigh. You can only do so much in one trip! I guess it means I have to go back

Cheers,

Murphy

flanneruk

IMHO, the tomb site at Vergina is one of the half dozen most spectacular historical sites anywhere in the world. And THE most comfortable.

Prespa Lake is OK. But there are thousands of nicer lakes in the world. Interesting if you're concerned with the history of monasticism. The drive on from there to Kastoria is quite lengthy, and the total drive time involved in getting from anywhere else to Kastoria is considerable.

Edessa waterfalls are interesting to Thessalonians, and reasonably pretty. They resemble my garden fountain more than Niagara though. Edessa itself is interesting to townplanners, and a surprisingly green town to break a journey in. But it certainly doesn't merit a detour - especially when there's just as cool, green countryside south of Thessalonica at Mount Olympus.

stanbr

I thought I would add a little more to Texasaggie's reponse on driving in Greece. He is absolutely right rent the car at the Athens airport and you can take the National Road out to the Peloponnese.

The major roads are well marked, first with Greek signs and then about a hundred meters further the signs are in English. It is important to have a trusty navigator to keep a second eye on the map the traffic and the roadsigns.

The further off the beaten path you get the less frequent are the English signs. Our Michelin map has both the Greek and English place names on it and my navigator became quite proficient in figuring out where we were headed even when the signs were all in Greek.

On the big highways, speed limits appear to be nothing more than suggestions and do not apply at all to Bmw's, Audis and Mercedes.
( although they do use radar on the National Road ).
If a car overtakes you, you are expected to get out of the way by moving over to the right even if that means pulling off on the shoulder ( provided there is one) There can be some adventure in this especially on the big highways. Several times I checked my rear view mirror and found the road empty. I would pull out to pass at 120 KMph and big German car always overtook me doing about 160.

Other things to be aware of.
Pedestrians do not have the right of way and it is their responsibility to get out of the way. I stopped for a pedestrian once and caused a virtual standstill in both vehicular and jay walking traffic.

Outside of the main roads, the country roads are very narrow and are really only a lane and a half wide. As a result the Greeks tend to drive in the middle of the road. They are somehat sloppy drivers and rely on lightening reflexes to get out of the way. Surprisingly after a week of driving there, I too saw how pratical it is to drive in the middle of the road. Speed tends to be much lower on these country roads and I learned to get out of the way whenever necessary.

Lastly should you choose to do the Peloponnese 10 days to 2 weeks will be lots of time to see virtually everything, particularly Nafplion, Monemvasia, Mytras and the Mani. Be flexable you may arrive at one of these cities particularly Nafplion and Monemvasia and be so enamoured that you will want to stay extra nights.

I have just posted Peloponnese pictures of our recent trip at www.webshots.com community page find member lollypeter100

tcreath

stanbr, thanks so much for all the great driving information! I'm keeping this post and saving it to a word document, so all of the information will be very helpful. DH will be driving and I will be the trusty map reader; we have that situation down to a fine science!

And thanks for the link to the pictures! They look gorgeous, and every time I see pictures of Greece I long to visit even more.

Flanner, thank you once again for your fountain of information. Your thoughts on the tomb reconfirm our decision to visit that area.

Thanks so much everyone!!
Tracy

stanbr

Have a good trip. Let us know about your experiences when you get back.