French: How To Say... in Fromageries
Aug 18th, 2004, 12:53 PM
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French: How To Say... in Fromageries
I'll preface this by saying I speak a passable amount of French from many years in highschool, college, and 3 or 4 trips to paris. But I'm rusty.
When in Paris, what's the best way to say some of these things as I shop the fromageries...
1) "My daughter is allergic to/can't eat cow's milk?" Would it be as simple as "Elle ne peut pas manger lait ou beurre..." or "Elle est allergique a..."
2) goat milk, goat cheese, goat yogurt... I might recognize some of the chesses we see by name but might want to ask for clarification "Is this a goat cheese?"
3) How do you distinguish cow's milk... do you say "milk of a cow" or "cheese of a cow" or is the assumption there that it's cow unless otherwise stated. (Here in the US at places like Whole Foods you can buy Goat Milk products, but it's always a mouthful to say "Goat Milk Yogurt."
)
4) I can't recall if the fromageries allow you to taste anything before buying. I was never really gunshy about cheeses but might be this time only because I have a good sense of what she would eat and not eat. So is it more appropriate to purchase an extremely small piece, then buy more, or should we ask for a taste. (Is an extremely small piece purchased actually more frustration for the seller than just offering a taste.) And how would someone ask for that taste, "Est-ce qu'il est possibile gouter" or "Pourrions-nous gouter?" or something else?
A little background on why I'm asking this... my little 16 month old daughter is allergic to cows milk and most cow's milk products. She can tolerate the occasional item baked wth milk or butter, so it's not life-threatening... but she can't consume them directly like a slice of cheese or glass of milk.
She does, however, LOVE goat milk yogurt which I give her every day, and she has started eating goat milk cheeses. Her favorite cheese right now is a hard Italian goat cheese called capra sarda, but she has also enjoyed hard spanish goat and sheeps cheeses. I want to be able to try cheeses and feel comfortable with handing her some without any adverse tummy reactions. Ahhh... my budding gourmand.
Thanks,
Kat
When in Paris, what's the best way to say some of these things as I shop the fromageries...
1) "My daughter is allergic to/can't eat cow's milk?" Would it be as simple as "Elle ne peut pas manger lait ou beurre..." or "Elle est allergique a..."
2) goat milk, goat cheese, goat yogurt... I might recognize some of the chesses we see by name but might want to ask for clarification "Is this a goat cheese?"
3) How do you distinguish cow's milk... do you say "milk of a cow" or "cheese of a cow" or is the assumption there that it's cow unless otherwise stated. (Here in the US at places like Whole Foods you can buy Goat Milk products, but it's always a mouthful to say "Goat Milk Yogurt."
)4) I can't recall if the fromageries allow you to taste anything before buying. I was never really gunshy about cheeses but might be this time only because I have a good sense of what she would eat and not eat. So is it more appropriate to purchase an extremely small piece, then buy more, or should we ask for a taste. (Is an extremely small piece purchased actually more frustration for the seller than just offering a taste.) And how would someone ask for that taste, "Est-ce qu'il est possibile gouter" or "Pourrions-nous gouter?" or something else?
A little background on why I'm asking this... my little 16 month old daughter is allergic to cows milk and most cow's milk products. She can tolerate the occasional item baked wth milk or butter, so it's not life-threatening... but she can't consume them directly like a slice of cheese or glass of milk.
She does, however, LOVE goat milk yogurt which I give her every day, and she has started eating goat milk cheeses. Her favorite cheese right now is a hard Italian goat cheese called capra sarda, but she has also enjoyed hard spanish goat and sheeps cheeses. I want to be able to try cheeses and feel comfortable with handing her some without any adverse tummy reactions. Ahhh... my budding gourmand.
Thanks,
Kat
Aug 18th, 2004, 01:04 PM
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Keep it simple:
==========================
Je veux acheter
I want to buy
seulement
only
fromages de chevre <i>or</i> yaourt de...
goat cheeses (yogurt)
ou
or
fromages de brebis
sheep's cheeses
Ma fille est allergie aux
My daughter is allergic to
fromages de vache
====================
Best wishes,
Rex
==========================
Je veux acheter
I want to buy
seulement
only
fromages de chevre <i>or</i> yaourt de...
goat cheeses (yogurt)
ou
or
fromages de brebis
sheep's cheeses
Ma fille est allergie aux
My daughter is allergic to
fromages de vache
====================
Best wishes,
Rex
Aug 18th, 2004, 01:12 PM
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1) Ma fille est allergique aux fromages de vache. Your examples are also fine
2)Est-ce que c'est un fromage de chèvre? Or even just Est-ce que c'est une chèvre?
3) I think the assumption in France is that milk or yogurt will be from a cow unless otherwise stated or noted.
4) I'm sure you can ask for a taste of any cheese in a formagerie - you will probably be enouraged to taste. Just say Est-ce que je pourrai gouter....?
Using the conditional (je voudrais, pourrai-je, etc.) is always more polite than, e.g., je veux.
2)Est-ce que c'est un fromage de chèvre? Or even just Est-ce que c'est une chèvre?
3) I think the assumption in France is that milk or yogurt will be from a cow unless otherwise stated or noted.
4) I'm sure you can ask for a taste of any cheese in a formagerie - you will probably be enouraged to taste. Just say Est-ce que je pourrai gouter....?
Using the conditional (je voudrais, pourrai-je, etc.) is always more polite than, e.g., je veux.
Aug 18th, 2004, 01:21 PM
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Thank you both for that... in a country with as many cheeses as France, I didn't think it would be as simple as "chevre"... which I thought mostly referred to the soft rounds of goat cheese.
Also, REX, can I ask you a related question, since you're an expert? I just found a post about pasteurized vs. unpasteurized... and completely forgot what a time I had while PG and avoiding so many yummy cheeses. Does my little one need to avoid unpasteurized cheeses, too? (I'll probably call my pedi, but if you have any insight...)
How do you say pasteurized & unpasteurized in French. I can't recall ever worrying about it before... is it on the little tag or do you need to ask the seller?
Thanks,
Kat
Also, REX, can I ask you a related question, since you're an expert? I just found a post about pasteurized vs. unpasteurized... and completely forgot what a time I had while PG and avoiding so many yummy cheeses. Does my little one need to avoid unpasteurized cheeses, too? (I'll probably call my pedi, but if you have any insight...)
How do you say pasteurized & unpasteurized in French. I can't recall ever worrying about it before... is it on the little tag or do you need to ask the seller?
Thanks,
Kat
Aug 18th, 2004, 01:26 PM
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Pasteurisé - non-pasteurisé, BUT I don't think I've ever seen a cheese with a label indicating whether it was one or the other. Maybe I was just too eager to get it in my mouth, though
Aug 18th, 2004, 01:50 PM
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"It's one of those things!"
Je voudrais, <i>but</i> je pourrai
And shame on me for suggesting je veux...
As for being an expert... well, I am an expert on eating, maybe... I do not claim to be an expert on feeding cheese to a toddler (I am a neonatologist - - and essentially do not care for babies once they go home). But I do know the underlying science. Raw cheeses may harbor listeria - - a bacteria which can cause a peculiar form of <i>placental</i> infection (and thus lead to miscarriage/fetal death - - or occasionally preterm birth with or without neonatal infection). I am unaware of any particular risk of listeria-containing cheese by any non-pregnant person of any age.
Je voudrais, <i>but</i> je pourrai
And shame on me for suggesting je veux...
As for being an expert... well, I am an expert on eating, maybe... I do not claim to be an expert on feeding cheese to a toddler (I am a neonatologist - - and essentially do not care for babies once they go home). But I do know the underlying science. Raw cheeses may harbor listeria - - a bacteria which can cause a peculiar form of <i>placental</i> infection (and thus lead to miscarriage/fetal death - - or occasionally preterm birth with or without neonatal infection). I am unaware of any particular risk of listeria-containing cheese by any non-pregnant person of any age.
Aug 18th, 2004, 01:54 PM
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Are you sure about that, rex?
See http://french.about.com/library/verb/bl_pouvoir.htm
I guess I'll check Bescherelle when I get home. It looks odd. In any case, it seems counter-intuitive that the endings will change -- typically verbs are irregular due to stem changes but the endings are always the same.
See http://french.about.com/library/verb/bl_pouvoir.htm
I guess I'll check Bescherelle when I get home. It looks odd. In any case, it seems counter-intuitive that the endings will change -- typically verbs are irregular due to stem changes but the endings are always the same.
Aug 18th, 2004, 02:02 PM
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Whoops - - I was NOT sure - - so I looked it up too. But apparently I looked at <i>futur</i>
Maybe there is something idiomatically preferred to pouvoir - - to say "will I be able to" as opposed to "would I be able to"?
Not distinguishable in pronunciation, of course, except for nous and vous
... so what say you, Madame C... "Pourrons-nous"? or "Pourrions-nous"?
Maybe there is something idiomatically preferred to pouvoir - - to say "will I be able to" as opposed to "would I be able to"?
Not distinguishable in pronunciation, of course, except for nous and vous
... so what say you, Madame C... "Pourrons-nous"? or "Pourrions-nous"?
Aug 18th, 2004, 02:04 PM
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Honestly, I don't think so. The future is not the polite form.
And for what it's worth, I think that je veux is fine, and je prends (I take) is very common as well.
But I'd better leave before I waste more time on this forum.
And for what it's worth, I think that je veux is fine, and je prends (I take) is very common as well.
But I'd better leave before I waste more time on this forum.
Aug 18th, 2004, 02:19 PM
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My error - je pourrais, as in all uses of the first person conditional. And "je prends" is fine for requesting something in a store or restaurant, but "je veux" has a slightly brusque and forceful aspect to it. Je voudrais, which is "I'd like" as opposed to "I want," is indeed more polite, just as "could I have" (est-ce que je pourrais..?) is more polite than "can I have?" (est-ce que je peux...?) We use the same future conditional in English and it's more polite in our language, too.
Aug 18th, 2004, 04:38 PM
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Getting back to the original question:
I think it's important to make it clear that this is an ALLERGY to cow's milk. Sure, you can ask if a cheese is "chevre", goat, meaning that it is made from goat's milk. But it doesn't seem entirely out of the range of possibility for a cheese to be made out of a mix. Thus it might be identified as being a "goat cheese", but might have some cow's milk in it as well.
Specifically mentioning the allergy lets people know exactly what the problem is, and also alerts them to the fact that this is a serious matter, not just a matter of taste.
"Ma fille est allergique au lait de vache, mais elle peux avoir le lait de chèvre."
= "My daughter is allergic to cow's milk, but she can have goat's milk."
I'd also recommend prefixing the above with what Polly Platt calls "the ten magic words": "Excusez-moi de vous déranger, Monsieur, mais j'ai un problème" (well, really, there are eleven). Generally, when approached in this way, the French will bend over backwards to help you solve your "problem".
This approach comes from the book, "French or Foe?", by Polly Platt, which I highly recommend, and which I find myself mentioning for the second time tonight on Fodors.
My wife has a similar problem: she is allergic to shellfish. To prepare for our trip to Provence in four weeks, we're making sure we know the words needed to make her allergies clear. Yes, "fruits de mer" in general, but we may have to specify that this includes not only crustaceans like shrimp and langoustine, but also mollusks like mussels and clams, and anything containing broth or bouillon from these products. She can eat any ordinary fish, but we have to be concerned about the possibility that a fish might be steeped in clam broth. (To tell the truth, we have no idea if she should avoid snails, so she will avoid them.)
- Larry
I think it's important to make it clear that this is an ALLERGY to cow's milk. Sure, you can ask if a cheese is "chevre", goat, meaning that it is made from goat's milk. But it doesn't seem entirely out of the range of possibility for a cheese to be made out of a mix. Thus it might be identified as being a "goat cheese", but might have some cow's milk in it as well.
Specifically mentioning the allergy lets people know exactly what the problem is, and also alerts them to the fact that this is a serious matter, not just a matter of taste.
"Ma fille est allergique au lait de vache, mais elle peux avoir le lait de chèvre."
= "My daughter is allergic to cow's milk, but she can have goat's milk."
I'd also recommend prefixing the above with what Polly Platt calls "the ten magic words": "Excusez-moi de vous déranger, Monsieur, mais j'ai un problème" (well, really, there are eleven). Generally, when approached in this way, the French will bend over backwards to help you solve your "problem".
This approach comes from the book, "French or Foe?", by Polly Platt, which I highly recommend, and which I find myself mentioning for the second time tonight on Fodors.
My wife has a similar problem: she is allergic to shellfish. To prepare for our trip to Provence in four weeks, we're making sure we know the words needed to make her allergies clear. Yes, "fruits de mer" in general, but we may have to specify that this includes not only crustaceans like shrimp and langoustine, but also mollusks like mussels and clams, and anything containing broth or bouillon from these products. She can eat any ordinary fish, but we have to be concerned about the possibility that a fish might be steeped in clam broth. (To tell the truth, we have no idea if she should avoid snails, so she will avoid them.)
- Larry
Aug 19th, 2004, 05:53 AM
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Lait cru = unpasteurised milk
Fromage au lait cru = cheese made from unpasteurised milk
Lait pasteurisé = pasteurised milk
NB - Un chèvre = goat's cheese but *Une chèvre* (feminine) = goat (the animal)
When I'm at the market here and want to taste something, I just say "je peux goûter?" or "serait-il possible de goûter?"
Fromage au lait cru = cheese made from unpasteurised milk
Lait pasteurisé = pasteurised milk
NB - Un chèvre = goat's cheese but *Une chèvre* (feminine) = goat (the animal)
When I'm at the market here and want to taste something, I just say "je peux goûter?" or "serait-il possible de goûter?"
Aug 19th, 2004, 11:33 AM
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We'll be attending French language classes in about four weeks from now at the Ecole des Trois Ponts in Roanne, and this thread reminded my wife that we ought to write to the school (where we will also take our meals) to warn them about her allergy to shellfish. They replied that they will note her "grande allergie", and that they are used to dealing with allergies, and that shellfish allergy is particularly common, so we shouldn't worry about it.
What I found a bit curious is their use of the term "grande allergie". I'm not sure if the adjective "grande" was applied because of the number of things I enumerated that Margie is allergic to, or if the term distinguishes a really serious allergy from a more minor one. I'll try to do some more research on this.
hanl, thanks for your note on "chèvre". I imagine that "un chèvre" is masculine because it is really an abbreviated version of "un fromage de chèvre". But the distinction is worth paying attention to, unless you want to risk saying that your daughter doesn't want this cheese, but would rather eat a goat.
Here's the exact message from the school: "Nous avons pris note de la grande allergie de Margret et le chef fera son maximum pour la satisfaire. Nous avons l'habitude des personnes avec
allergie, ne vous inquietez pas. Et les fruits de mer sont une allergie fréquente."
- Larry
What I found a bit curious is their use of the term "grande allergie". I'm not sure if the adjective "grande" was applied because of the number of things I enumerated that Margie is allergic to, or if the term distinguishes a really serious allergy from a more minor one. I'll try to do some more research on this.
hanl, thanks for your note on "chèvre". I imagine that "un chèvre" is masculine because it is really an abbreviated version of "un fromage de chèvre". But the distinction is worth paying attention to, unless you want to risk saying that your daughter doesn't want this cheese, but would rather eat a goat.
Here's the exact message from the school: "Nous avons pris note de la grande allergie de Margret et le chef fera son maximum pour la satisfaire. Nous avons l'habitude des personnes avec
allergie, ne vous inquietez pas. Et les fruits de mer sont une allergie fréquente."
- Larry
Aug 19th, 2004, 12:32 PM
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1) "My daughter is allergic to cow's milk?"
Ma fille est allergique au lait de vache.
2) goat milk, goat cheese, goat yogurt...
lait de chèvre, fromage de chèvre,..as for the yogurt, I didn't even know this thing existed. Never noticed it anywhere.
"Is this a goat cheese?"
C'est un fromage de chèvre? C'est un chèvre?
3) How do you distinguish cow's milk... do you say "milk of a cow" or "cheese of a cow" or is the assumption there that it's cow unless otherwise stated.
Assume that milk is cow's milk. Cow's cheese are much more common, but you can't make this assumption.
4) I can't recall if the fromageries allow you to taste anything before buying. [.....]So is it more appropriate to purchase an extremely small piece, then buy more, or should we ask for a taste.
Genrally they will if you ask, but it becomes less and less customary, at least in Paris. In other places, you might be offered to taste even without asking. It's more common in fromageries than in supermarkets. I wouldn't even bother to ask in a parisian supermarket.
In a fromagerie, at the contrary I'd rather ask them to taste than buy a ridiculously small piece of cheese.
5)And how would someone ask for that taste, "Est-ce qu'il est possibile gouter" or "Pourrions-nous gouter?" or something else?
Both are correct. It's "est-ce qu'il est possible DE gouter", though.
I also think you should stress the "allergic" part. A surprinsingly high number of people selling food just don't realize that allergies can be a serious deal. Allergy = a little pimple on the following day or = high maintenance bitching customer in many people's mind.
I would also mention that there's a number of cheese made with ewe's milk. You could want to try these. eve cheese = fromage de brebis.
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