French experts: Which is correct, the D'Orsay? or the Orsay?
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:56 AM
#42
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I asked my French friends, and here are their replies:
Oui: "je vais à Orsay pour voir telle expo", ça va. Mais "je vais à Orsay" tout court, ça ne va plus: on comprend: "je vais à Orsay (la ville)". Quant à aller "au d'Orsay", niet! Donc, allons tout simplement au musée d’Orsay!
Non: "au Orsay" n'a jamais été lancé comme expression de familairité; "à Orsay" désigne la ville.
L'expression "au d'Orsay" est franchement fausse, tandis que "à Orsay" est correcte mais peut porter à confusion car Orsay est une ville de la banlieue de Paris donc si le contexte ne permet pas de comprendre qu'il s'agit là du musée, cela peut être mal compris...
On dit : "Je vais à Orsay."
Ni l'un ni l'autre. On est obligé de dire au Musée d'Orsay. A la rigueur à Orsay, mais avec risque de confusion parce que Orsay est une ville de la région parisienne, alors si tu dis ça au chauffeur de taxi, le malentendu est gênant.
Oui: "je vais à Orsay pour voir telle expo", ça va. Mais "je vais à Orsay" tout court, ça ne va plus: on comprend: "je vais à Orsay (la ville)". Quant à aller "au d'Orsay", niet! Donc, allons tout simplement au musée d’Orsay!
Non: "au Orsay" n'a jamais été lancé comme expression de familairité; "à Orsay" désigne la ville.
L'expression "au d'Orsay" est franchement fausse, tandis que "à Orsay" est correcte mais peut porter à confusion car Orsay est une ville de la banlieue de Paris donc si le contexte ne permet pas de comprendre qu'il s'agit là du musée, cela peut être mal compris...
On dit : "Je vais à Orsay."
Ni l'un ni l'autre. On est obligé de dire au Musée d'Orsay. A la rigueur à Orsay, mais avec risque de confusion parce que Orsay est une ville de la région parisienne, alors si tu dis ça au chauffeur de taxi, le malentendu est gênant.
Feb 2nd, 2010, 10:41 AM
#44
Yet that is what eliminated the confusion.
If you say: "je vais à Orsay", it might be the town.
If you say: "je vais à l'Orsay," there is no doubt that you are talking about the museum.
Actually, it is true that just about everybody uses the full name: "je vais au musée d'Orsay."
If you say: "je vais à Orsay", it might be the town.
If you say: "je vais à l'Orsay," there is no doubt that you are talking about the museum.
Actually, it is true that just about everybody uses the full name: "je vais au musée d'Orsay."
Feb 2nd, 2010, 12:24 PM
#47
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Michel_Paris,
If you're a geek, then so am I.
So now it becomes clearer to me (from Michael's post) that saying "je vais au musee d'Orsay" (as he & kerouac note is common in French), can distill down to "I'm going to the d'Orsay museum" in English. Lesson learned. EJ
If you're a geek, then so am I.
So now it becomes clearer to me (from Michael's post) that saying "je vais au musee d'Orsay" (as he & kerouac note is common in French), can distill down to "I'm going to the d'Orsay museum" in English. Lesson learned. EJ
Feb 2nd, 2010, 01:14 PM
#50
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<i>Michael, are you demonstrating Kerouac's point that people from the provinces will say the full name of the museum?</i>
All my respondents live in Paris or its environs, including the one providing the following response:
La réponse est simple : non.
Mais on peut dire : je vais au Louvre.
Pourquoi de telles variations?
Parce que sinon le français serait trop facile à apprendre pour les étrangers ;-)
My thinking had been more subtle. The <i>d'</i> was a vestigial remain from the original name: la gare d'Orsay. As such, its inclusion is just part of the name, and for that reason I thought it would be kept even when omitting the word <i>musée</i> and in keeping with the use of <i>de</i> in proper names: "on ne garde la particule que devant voyelle ou <i>h</i> muet ... (<u>Le Petit Robert</u
All my respondents live in Paris or its environs, including the one providing the following response:
La réponse est simple : non.
Mais on peut dire : je vais au Louvre.
Pourquoi de telles variations?
Parce que sinon le français serait trop facile à apprendre pour les étrangers ;-)
My thinking had been more subtle. The <i>d'</i> was a vestigial remain from the original name: la gare d'Orsay. As such, its inclusion is just part of the name, and for that reason I thought it would be kept even when omitting the word <i>musée</i> and in keeping with the use of <i>de</i> in proper names: "on ne garde la particule que devant voyelle ou <i>h</i> muet ... (<u>Le Petit Robert</u
Feb 2nd, 2010, 01:47 PM
#53
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StCirq & Padraig,
Indeed the sigh is not warranted.
When I wrote:
<<"I'm going to the d'Orsay museum" in English. Lesson learned. EJ>> I meant that the lesson (for me) was NOT to refer to the museum as the d'Orsay in English. C'est entendu? EJ
Indeed the sigh is not warranted.
When I wrote:
<<"I'm going to the d'Orsay museum" in English. Lesson learned. EJ>> I meant that the lesson (for me) was NOT to refer to the museum as the d'Orsay in English. C'est entendu? EJ
Feb 2nd, 2010, 04:17 PM
#56
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Nikki wrote: "Evidently it is as difficult to ensure understanding in English as it is in French."
Agus tá an Ghaeilge níos deacra fós. Bígí buíoch go bhfuil Béarla againn go léir (seachas roinnt stróinséirí).
Agus tá an Ghaeilge níos deacra fós. Bígí buíoch go bhfuil Béarla againn go léir (seachas roinnt stróinséirí).
Feb 2nd, 2010, 08:26 PM
#58
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"The d' was a vestigial remain from the original name: la gare d'Orsay. As such, its inclusion is just part of the name, and for that reason I thought it would be kept even when omitting the word musée and in keeping with the use of de in proper names: "on ne garde la particule que devant voyelle ou h muet ... (Le Petit Robert)"
Except that you don't say "je vais à d'Austerlitz" when you're going to "la gare d'Austerlitz" ......
Except that you don't say "je vais à d'Austerlitz" when you're going to "la gare d'Austerlitz" ......
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:11 PM
#59
Now for a real challenge, try to figure out which proper names in French keep a "de" in front and which do not.
For example, Charles de Gaulle remains "de Gaulle" when only the last name is used. But the Marquis de Sade is just "Sade" to the French, as former prime minister Dominique de Villepin is just "Villepin." Alexis de Tocqueville is just "Tocqueville," and the Cardinal de Richelieu is just "Richelieu."
There is a rule for keeping the "de" or not, but even so it is broken in one of the examples above.
For example, Charles de Gaulle remains "de Gaulle" when only the last name is used. But the Marquis de Sade is just "Sade" to the French, as former prime minister Dominique de Villepin is just "Villepin." Alexis de Tocqueville is just "Tocqueville," and the Cardinal de Richelieu is just "Richelieu."
There is a rule for keeping the "de" or not, but even so it is broken in one of the examples above.
Feb 2nd, 2010, 09:42 PM
#60
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"For example, Charles de Gaulle remains "de Gaulle" when only the last name is used. "
Yhis is why :
Conformément aux conventions de la langue française relatives à l'usage de la particule onomastique, le mot « Gaulle » étant monosyllabique, la particule « de » se conserve même quand le nom n'est pas précédé du prénom ou d'un titre de civilité[2].
Yhis is why :
Conformément aux conventions de la langue française relatives à l'usage de la particule onomastique, le mot « Gaulle » étant monosyllabique, la particule « de » se conserve même quand le nom n'est pas précédé du prénom ou d'un titre de civilité[2].
