Flat in Paris for 3 months
Feb 23rd, 2015, 07:29 PM
#21
I'd like to see an answer to the question billandcindy has posed. I, too, like to have an apartment in Paris and suspect that enforcement is spotty at best and I'm willing to rent if the chances are low I'll have to find another place.
I have some experience with the issue, being an Airbnb host in a county that requires hosts to register and pay a 10% short-term lodging tax. I registered and I pay it and I somehow have the feeling I'm the only one in the county that does. The county doesn't have the personnel to enforce the ordinance so most are just ignoring it. I pay because I don't want to worry about it. I strongly suspect the situation is much the same in Paris, with few to no enforcers seeking out the illegally rented apartments.
So I, too, ask, has anyone lost a place to stay because the rental was illegal?
I have some experience with the issue, being an Airbnb host in a county that requires hosts to register and pay a 10% short-term lodging tax. I registered and I pay it and I somehow have the feeling I'm the only one in the county that does. The county doesn't have the personnel to enforce the ordinance so most are just ignoring it. I pay because I don't want to worry about it. I strongly suspect the situation is much the same in Paris, with few to no enforcers seeking out the illegally rented apartments.
So I, too, ask, has anyone lost a place to stay because the rental was illegal?
Feb 23rd, 2015, 08:18 PM
#22
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Here are 3 thoughtful posts on both sides of the "illegal short-term rental" Issue from the TA thread cited above:
gnetwerker
Antarctica
#152 of 194 ·
Honestly, this whole thing is a tempest in a teapot, and one that blows up with some regularity here and elsewhere, to no obvious lasting effect. Unless and until there is some evidence of a major change, I will argue that anyone who rents a short-term apartment is as safe this year as they were last year or the year before -- which is to say, it depends on the quality and professionalism of the people renting it.
We've owned a Paris apartment for close to 17 years, and have rented it for 15, and these concerns crop up from time to time, so far without obvious effect, at least on quality rentals that don't abuse their neighbors.
There are so many strawmen being thrown out here, it is hard to know where to start. Let's start with the "I never break the law" motif. As someone else mentioned, venture out without carrying your passport -- you're breaking the law. Walk on the grass in the Jardins Luxembourg -- break the law. Jaywalk, drop litter, or fail to retain your Metro ticket -- breaking the law. In societies where "everything not specifically allowed is otherwise prohibited", then what matters is enforcement, and only when that really changes (as opposed to some outlier being made an example of) will it be worth paying attention.
The social issues and taxation issues highlighted are real, but they haven't changed much in 20 years or more. To the extent that AirBnB or other services (Uber comes to mind, to touch on another hot-button topic here) exploit loopholes in the law or actively encourage tax evasion, then the authorities should and will close the loopholes and enforce the law, while acknowledging that new forms of business with new models and new efficiencies can also be good for society.
The free-floating anxiety about "if I rent a place will it be there when I show up" is largely unfounded, or more precisely, hasn't changed in the last (many) years. There are many things that can happen with a rental of any kind, from a hotel room to a sort-stay apartment, and how they are dealt with reflects on the quality of the accommodation. As a very frequent traveler, I can say that I have been turned away from hotels where I've had a confirmed booking more frequently (three times) than I have from short-stay apartments (zero). As the renter of an apartment, I know what can happen: a pipe bursts, a heater stops working, major building works take place. When these happen, one scrambles, and often loses money. When I had a water heater failure some years ago, I rented a nearby hotel room so our guests could shower before their departure. In other situations I've rented alternative accommodations for guests at substantially more than they were paying, making up the difference myself. That is customer service. If you rent from a cheap or fly-by-night place, you may not get that service. But in the end this has little or nothing to do with these residency laws, at least in Paris, at least so far. You get what you pay for, mostly.
A big part of the issue is to ensure that one's guests know the unwritten "rules" of apartment life in Paris -- no noise after 10pm, no running the washer, no stomping around or yelling in the hall (ever), no loud music. One cultivates one's neighbors, goes above and beyond to maintain common spaces, and generally is careful and solicitous. Make sure the neighbors can reach you with problems. We either attend the quarterly syndic (condo association) meetings, or send someone briefed on the questions at hand.
We don't book by the night (5-day minimum), and we ensure that meetings take place at agreed-upon times to minimize loitering, etc. And after 15 years of renting, we have enough of a returning clientele that we don't need to advertise, and renting our place really is like lending it to friends and family (of which we also have plenty). We have repeat guests who stay 3-4 months almost every year, and the other tenants and owners in our building would run a mile to protect and defend them and us.
It is a simple economic fact that as long as there is demand for this sort of short-term rental, there will be a supply. I don't see a problem with the Paris authorities working to close the taxation loopholes, and curb the worst abuses. This will not affect 99.9% of visitors' experience of Paris short-stay apartments, and to suggest otherwise usually belies some alternative motivation or hidden agenda.
Mrs_French_Mystique · May 26, 2014, 3:34 PM
Paris, France · 6,211 forum posts
#162 of 194 ·
gnetwerker, you're right, the risk is presently minimal. Now you bought the apartment 20 years ago, before the problem escalated, and are doing business the old way, which is the reason I am generally bothered by even the word "illegal" which makes it sound like all investment owners are criminals and to blame for the housing problem in Paris....
And,
Mrs_French_Mystique · May 26, 2014,
#165 of 194 ·
I had only read up to post 152 when I started replying. Thanks pattyinparis and Annette for the replies on the taxe de séjour. I had started reading the ALUR law yesterday but it was too long and too complicated to understand all the implications. Hopefully it provides intelligent solutions to make that stupid Paris law unnecessary.
One thing I was in agreement with Cécile Duflot with, was the universal unpaid rent guarantee for long-lease owners, which was somewhat inspired by the Paris "Louez solidaire" (now I remember the name) program. From what I understand of the ALUR law, it was approved and should apply in 2016. Because that is the key in reducing the number of short-term rentals without criminalizing anyone. That is what I was talking about in my long 104 post before knowing if it had been approved or not. It will protect small owners who want to make long-term leases and were too afraid to do so because they could practically lose their property to tenants who refused to pay rent and leave the premises! Now these people won't have to resort to short-term rentals to safeguard their property. That is a much more intelligent approach than the supposed crackdown on short-term rentals.
As for the crackdown, it should really be enforced on the huge investors who are practically buying entire blocks or streets. I forget which street in the Marais was recenly bought by one person. I will see if I can find the info.
As for the unhappy neighbors, is anything planned in the ALUR law to protect them from having too many short-term units in their buildings? Because in the Paris region, there are regulations for businesses that are in residential homes. I am aware of them since I have just started my small business and converted one my bedrooms into a practice. The purpose of such regulations is not to cause disturbance to residents. Similar restrictions should apply.
_______________________________
Since these posts were written last May, has there been any noticeable effort to enforce the newly enacted ALUR? Does anyone on this forum have first-hand experience?
gnetwerker
Antarctica
#152 of 194 ·
Honestly, this whole thing is a tempest in a teapot, and one that blows up with some regularity here and elsewhere, to no obvious lasting effect. Unless and until there is some evidence of a major change, I will argue that anyone who rents a short-term apartment is as safe this year as they were last year or the year before -- which is to say, it depends on the quality and professionalism of the people renting it.
We've owned a Paris apartment for close to 17 years, and have rented it for 15, and these concerns crop up from time to time, so far without obvious effect, at least on quality rentals that don't abuse their neighbors.
There are so many strawmen being thrown out here, it is hard to know where to start. Let's start with the "I never break the law" motif. As someone else mentioned, venture out without carrying your passport -- you're breaking the law. Walk on the grass in the Jardins Luxembourg -- break the law. Jaywalk, drop litter, or fail to retain your Metro ticket -- breaking the law. In societies where "everything not specifically allowed is otherwise prohibited", then what matters is enforcement, and only when that really changes (as opposed to some outlier being made an example of) will it be worth paying attention.
The social issues and taxation issues highlighted are real, but they haven't changed much in 20 years or more. To the extent that AirBnB or other services (Uber comes to mind, to touch on another hot-button topic here) exploit loopholes in the law or actively encourage tax evasion, then the authorities should and will close the loopholes and enforce the law, while acknowledging that new forms of business with new models and new efficiencies can also be good for society.
The free-floating anxiety about "if I rent a place will it be there when I show up" is largely unfounded, or more precisely, hasn't changed in the last (many) years. There are many things that can happen with a rental of any kind, from a hotel room to a sort-stay apartment, and how they are dealt with reflects on the quality of the accommodation. As a very frequent traveler, I can say that I have been turned away from hotels where I've had a confirmed booking more frequently (three times) than I have from short-stay apartments (zero). As the renter of an apartment, I know what can happen: a pipe bursts, a heater stops working, major building works take place. When these happen, one scrambles, and often loses money. When I had a water heater failure some years ago, I rented a nearby hotel room so our guests could shower before their departure. In other situations I've rented alternative accommodations for guests at substantially more than they were paying, making up the difference myself. That is customer service. If you rent from a cheap or fly-by-night place, you may not get that service. But in the end this has little or nothing to do with these residency laws, at least in Paris, at least so far. You get what you pay for, mostly.
A big part of the issue is to ensure that one's guests know the unwritten "rules" of apartment life in Paris -- no noise after 10pm, no running the washer, no stomping around or yelling in the hall (ever), no loud music. One cultivates one's neighbors, goes above and beyond to maintain common spaces, and generally is careful and solicitous. Make sure the neighbors can reach you with problems. We either attend the quarterly syndic (condo association) meetings, or send someone briefed on the questions at hand.
We don't book by the night (5-day minimum), and we ensure that meetings take place at agreed-upon times to minimize loitering, etc. And after 15 years of renting, we have enough of a returning clientele that we don't need to advertise, and renting our place really is like lending it to friends and family (of which we also have plenty). We have repeat guests who stay 3-4 months almost every year, and the other tenants and owners in our building would run a mile to protect and defend them and us.
It is a simple economic fact that as long as there is demand for this sort of short-term rental, there will be a supply. I don't see a problem with the Paris authorities working to close the taxation loopholes, and curb the worst abuses. This will not affect 99.9% of visitors' experience of Paris short-stay apartments, and to suggest otherwise usually belies some alternative motivation or hidden agenda.
Mrs_French_Mystique · May 26, 2014, 3:34 PM
Paris, France · 6,211 forum posts
#162 of 194 ·
gnetwerker, you're right, the risk is presently minimal. Now you bought the apartment 20 years ago, before the problem escalated, and are doing business the old way, which is the reason I am generally bothered by even the word "illegal" which makes it sound like all investment owners are criminals and to blame for the housing problem in Paris....
And,
Mrs_French_Mystique · May 26, 2014,
#165 of 194 ·
I had only read up to post 152 when I started replying. Thanks pattyinparis and Annette for the replies on the taxe de séjour. I had started reading the ALUR law yesterday but it was too long and too complicated to understand all the implications. Hopefully it provides intelligent solutions to make that stupid Paris law unnecessary.
One thing I was in agreement with Cécile Duflot with, was the universal unpaid rent guarantee for long-lease owners, which was somewhat inspired by the Paris "Louez solidaire" (now I remember the name) program. From what I understand of the ALUR law, it was approved and should apply in 2016. Because that is the key in reducing the number of short-term rentals without criminalizing anyone. That is what I was talking about in my long 104 post before knowing if it had been approved or not. It will protect small owners who want to make long-term leases and were too afraid to do so because they could practically lose their property to tenants who refused to pay rent and leave the premises! Now these people won't have to resort to short-term rentals to safeguard their property. That is a much more intelligent approach than the supposed crackdown on short-term rentals.
As for the crackdown, it should really be enforced on the huge investors who are practically buying entire blocks or streets. I forget which street in the Marais was recenly bought by one person. I will see if I can find the info.
As for the unhappy neighbors, is anything planned in the ALUR law to protect them from having too many short-term units in their buildings? Because in the Paris region, there are regulations for businesses that are in residential homes. I am aware of them since I have just started my small business and converted one my bedrooms into a practice. The purpose of such regulations is not to cause disturbance to residents. Similar restrictions should apply.
_______________________________
Since these posts were written last May, has there been any noticeable effort to enforce the newly enacted ALUR? Does anyone on this forum have first-hand experience?
Feb 23rd, 2015, 11:50 PM
#23
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People keep jumping to the incorrect conclusion that tenants will be evicted from rental apartments. To my knowledge, no one has said that this will happen - and this will not happen, due to the new legislation. As the report I quoted above stated - no tenant will be charged with an offense, and no tenant will be asked to leave the premises.
I do know of a few instances where tenants were asked to leave due to excessive noise complaints from neighbors or damage to the rental property. But that's the owner's prerogative, and is stated in the rental contract.
If you read reviews of rental properties - not the ones on the listing website, but by Googling the address and/or name of agency/owner - you will find people complaining that their rental was "unavailable", and either they were re-located or had to settle for a refund. It is an open secret in the rental industry that dissatisfied clients are often given an incentive to leave a positive review - whether it's a discount on a subsequent rental or a partial refund.
Last December, two friends were told by Thierry of ParisBestLodge that he had to cancel their reservations at the last minute, because the neighbors had been complaining and he had to "cool it for awhile". They were offered a 10% discount on their next rental. That apartment has since been put back on the market.
gnet is an exemplary property owner, whose long-term, repeat tenants do not reflect the typical rental situation. The Mayor's report cites these figures: average number of people in rental party - 3. Average length of stay - 5 nights. Average rent/night - 83 euros.
If you live in Paris, especially in the target areas of the Marais and the Latin Quarter, chances are very good that there will be at least a couple of short-term rentals in your building, often more than that - most of them budget studios sleeping 3 to 4 persons. Unfortunately, gnet does not own them, and the daily interaction with these short-term renters is not as depicted.
Over the years, I've lived in 3 different buildings (as a full-time resident/owner) - in the 3rd, 4th and 8th arrondissements - with a total of 11 vacation rental units. Here are things from my perspective: the majority of short-term rental property owners do not attend yearly meetings, and rarely, if ever, visit their property. Most of them do not live in France. Some will pay the gardiennes to "look the other way", though the gardiennes are also the ones talking to the Mayor's task force. Either the keys have been mailed in advance to the tenant or are left in a lockbox, or the manager lets in the tenants, and disappears. The tenants are left to fend for themselves, and cannot always reach the manager if a problem arises - often, there is a 75 euro fee for the manager to visit the apartment outside of the "meet and greet". It is not unusual for tenants to approach neighbors or the gardienne with questions about internet, appliances, plumbing, trash disposal, etc. Either there are no instructions left in the rental, or they are not easily understood. My neighbors complain about visitors bothering them with questions, making noise after hours, not respecting the trash recycling rules, and so forth. I'm upset, too, since I'm the only person willing to speak English, and the visitors are usually referred to me. Tourists are not always nice, and often assume that everyone in the building will be willing and able to take care of their needs. Needless to say, the opposite is true - unless there were a genuine emergency.
Thought the ALUR law does not restrict the number of vacation rentals that may exist in a residential property, the rules and regulations of the building's co-op board may permit or deny short-term rentals. The City of Paris upholds the wishes of the residents, since quality of life issues outweigh the needs of short-term visitors. In 2013, my building voted to denounce the two short-term rentals, whose owners were each fined 50,000 EU and ordered to stop renting. One has since sold her property, and the other is appealing the ruling. He asks tenants to sign one-year leases, which are then destroyed at the end of the visit. In 2014, my building voted to sue him, and that is on-going.
If you feel that you want to rent an apartment in Paris, you will probably be able to do so, at least at the present time. Whether or not it will be available when you arrive is anybody's guess. There is simply no way to predict who will remove a rental from the market - or when, or why. People on vacation seem to have a strong sense of entitlement - but I wonder how they would feel if the shoe were on the other foot, and they were faced with the same situation.
I do know of a few instances where tenants were asked to leave due to excessive noise complaints from neighbors or damage to the rental property. But that's the owner's prerogative, and is stated in the rental contract.
If you read reviews of rental properties - not the ones on the listing website, but by Googling the address and/or name of agency/owner - you will find people complaining that their rental was "unavailable", and either they were re-located or had to settle for a refund. It is an open secret in the rental industry that dissatisfied clients are often given an incentive to leave a positive review - whether it's a discount on a subsequent rental or a partial refund.
Last December, two friends were told by Thierry of ParisBestLodge that he had to cancel their reservations at the last minute, because the neighbors had been complaining and he had to "cool it for awhile". They were offered a 10% discount on their next rental. That apartment has since been put back on the market.
gnet is an exemplary property owner, whose long-term, repeat tenants do not reflect the typical rental situation. The Mayor's report cites these figures: average number of people in rental party - 3. Average length of stay - 5 nights. Average rent/night - 83 euros.
If you live in Paris, especially in the target areas of the Marais and the Latin Quarter, chances are very good that there will be at least a couple of short-term rentals in your building, often more than that - most of them budget studios sleeping 3 to 4 persons. Unfortunately, gnet does not own them, and the daily interaction with these short-term renters is not as depicted.
Over the years, I've lived in 3 different buildings (as a full-time resident/owner) - in the 3rd, 4th and 8th arrondissements - with a total of 11 vacation rental units. Here are things from my perspective: the majority of short-term rental property owners do not attend yearly meetings, and rarely, if ever, visit their property. Most of them do not live in France. Some will pay the gardiennes to "look the other way", though the gardiennes are also the ones talking to the Mayor's task force. Either the keys have been mailed in advance to the tenant or are left in a lockbox, or the manager lets in the tenants, and disappears. The tenants are left to fend for themselves, and cannot always reach the manager if a problem arises - often, there is a 75 euro fee for the manager to visit the apartment outside of the "meet and greet". It is not unusual for tenants to approach neighbors or the gardienne with questions about internet, appliances, plumbing, trash disposal, etc. Either there are no instructions left in the rental, or they are not easily understood. My neighbors complain about visitors bothering them with questions, making noise after hours, not respecting the trash recycling rules, and so forth. I'm upset, too, since I'm the only person willing to speak English, and the visitors are usually referred to me. Tourists are not always nice, and often assume that everyone in the building will be willing and able to take care of their needs. Needless to say, the opposite is true - unless there were a genuine emergency.
Thought the ALUR law does not restrict the number of vacation rentals that may exist in a residential property, the rules and regulations of the building's co-op board may permit or deny short-term rentals. The City of Paris upholds the wishes of the residents, since quality of life issues outweigh the needs of short-term visitors. In 2013, my building voted to denounce the two short-term rentals, whose owners were each fined 50,000 EU and ordered to stop renting. One has since sold her property, and the other is appealing the ruling. He asks tenants to sign one-year leases, which are then destroyed at the end of the visit. In 2014, my building voted to sue him, and that is on-going.
If you feel that you want to rent an apartment in Paris, you will probably be able to do so, at least at the present time. Whether or not it will be available when you arrive is anybody's guess. There is simply no way to predict who will remove a rental from the market - or when, or why. People on vacation seem to have a strong sense of entitlement - but I wonder how they would feel if the shoe were on the other foot, and they were faced with the same situation.
Feb 24th, 2015, 12:36 AM
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Well, there's a post no one will ever read.
Here is a story done by the BBC four months ago, where it talks about Paris rental inspectors following tourists dragging suitcases through the streets of Paris to find out if they were going to an illegal rental -- and yes, it has quotes in it!!! It does happen to real people.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30580295
I have no idea why some people here are trying to con fellow travelers into believing "No worries -- go rent an apartment in Paris! Go rent it with Airbnb!"
Why don't you feel some sense of responsibility for people who might end up with nowhere to stay? Why is so important to you to promote Airbnb?
As for waiting for the Godot of someone to find this thread and tell you of their bad experiences, first of all -- how many people post of Fodor's? Twenty? And please realize that those posts you read where people talking about an apartment they had booked suddenly becoming unavailable -- having been told there were "plumbing problems" or some such -- are more likely than not illegal apartments suddenly getting pulled off the market by illegal renters.
But carry on, drone on, cling to whatever you want to believe. Fortunately, there are several regular posters on Fodor's who actually care about innocent people going to Paris who need a place to stay and don't want to get their trip ruined.
Here is a story done by the BBC four months ago, where it talks about Paris rental inspectors following tourists dragging suitcases through the streets of Paris to find out if they were going to an illegal rental -- and yes, it has quotes in it!!! It does happen to real people.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30580295
I have no idea why some people here are trying to con fellow travelers into believing "No worries -- go rent an apartment in Paris! Go rent it with Airbnb!"
Why don't you feel some sense of responsibility for people who might end up with nowhere to stay? Why is so important to you to promote Airbnb?
As for waiting for the Godot of someone to find this thread and tell you of their bad experiences, first of all -- how many people post of Fodor's? Twenty? And please realize that those posts you read where people talking about an apartment they had booked suddenly becoming unavailable -- having been told there were "plumbing problems" or some such -- are more likely than not illegal apartments suddenly getting pulled off the market by illegal renters.
But carry on, drone on, cling to whatever you want to believe. Fortunately, there are several regular posters on Fodor's who actually care about innocent people going to Paris who need a place to stay and don't want to get their trip ruined.
Feb 24th, 2015, 01:05 AM
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And here's another story about Paris "spot" inspections of illegally rented apartments
http://www.travelandtourworld.com/ne...liday-rentals/
I really don't think a few of you will be able to bully everybody else into silence about sharing news of critical interest to people traveling. I cannot figure out why you are upset and trying to "prove" your way of doing things must be the only right one for everyone and warnings about illegal rentals should be chased off the message boards or mocked/diminished in some way. Other people are glad to have this information.
http://www.travelandtourworld.com/ne...liday-rentals/
I really don't think a few of you will be able to bully everybody else into silence about sharing news of critical interest to people traveling. I cannot figure out why you are upset and trying to "prove" your way of doing things must be the only right one for everyone and warnings about illegal rentals should be chased off the message boards or mocked/diminished in some way. Other people are glad to have this information.
Feb 24th, 2015, 06:28 AM
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I totally understand the issue. But where does that leave someone who is going to be in Paris for a couple of months, for an internship or to learn French? Student lodging is out, as it is only available during summer or for people registered at university. 3 months in a hotel or an apartment hotel like Citadines, is too expensive.
We will look at the foyers, if these are available for that period.
We will look at the foyers, if these are available for that period.
Feb 24th, 2015, 11:03 AM
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sandra - I think it's pretty obvious that people who constantly flog the same agencies, apartments and even managers on Fodor's, TA and other travel forums are either property owners, their managers, friends or repeat clients - who receive discounts, free nights or other compensation in return for this free advertising and/or favorable reviews. It's not supposed to happen, but it does.
The latest estimate is that there are some 30,000 short-term rentals in Paris that are listed on the internet. Doesn't anyone think it's odd that the same places are the only ones that are "highly recommended"?
Tulips - and anyone planning to come to live in Paris to learn French or take a short-term position - housing should have been the first priority, before you signed up for this. Paris - or any foreign city - is not Disneyland. You will be competing for housing with people who need it to survive. It's disingenuous to think that you - or other tourists - matter more than people who are trying to feed their families. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's the reality of it - welcome to Paris.
The latest estimate is that there are some 30,000 short-term rentals in Paris that are listed on the internet. Doesn't anyone think it's odd that the same places are the only ones that are "highly recommended"?
Tulips - and anyone planning to come to live in Paris to learn French or take a short-term position - housing should have been the first priority, before you signed up for this. Paris - or any foreign city - is not Disneyland. You will be competing for housing with people who need it to survive. It's disingenuous to think that you - or other tourists - matter more than people who are trying to feed their families. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's the reality of it - welcome to Paris.
Feb 25th, 2015, 12:51 AM
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Sorry Manouche, that is a ridiculous argument.
A graduate student wanting to improve her French would actually be responsible for turning people out in the street? I thought that the French encourage the study of French language and culture. She is not enrolled in anything yet. We are looking at housing first. It would not be a problem in any other large city.
Thank you though for confirming my views on Paris.
A graduate student wanting to improve her French would actually be responsible for turning people out in the street? I thought that the French encourage the study of French language and culture. She is not enrolled in anything yet. We are looking at housing first. It would not be a problem in any other large city.
Thank you though for confirming my views on Paris.
Feb 25th, 2015, 06:43 AM
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Tulips, have you checked out Sabbatical Homes yet? I believe it is more for students and professors than vacationers.
https://www.sabbaticalhomes.com/
There are lots of places in Paris, many in your price range.
https://www.sabbaticalhomes.com/
There are lots of places in Paris, many in your price range.
