HI EVERYONE,
I'm looking for suggestions for my April stay in Madrid: would like to see an authentic non-touristy flamenco performance (or two). I saw a great one last year in Jerez at a place called Casa de la Memoria. Looking for something similar - will do a lot of internet searching, but maybe someone has actually been to a recommendable venue. Thanks,
LouAnne

We enjoyed Casa Patas.

http://www.casapatas.com/eng/BASE.html

Thanks Maria - was the audience mostly made up of tourists - or locals? Do you remember? Anyway, thanks for the info.

Another vote for Casa Patas. Mostly locals. We went to the midnight show, and I read that that is a better experience than the earlier show, but I can't compare.

Louanne..I think you will find very few locals in flamenco shows..but it's not because the show is bad, it's because flamenco it's not so popular here in Spain. So, wherever you go..you will find more tourists than locals.
For me (I'm a spaniard) Flamenco has two kind of venues , private ones where only the friends and family of the artists can see it..or big shows in theatres that you also can see in the States

Casa Patas is mainly a tourist destination for the early show, crowded and uninspiring and the food is only so-so.

Have you seen the great Sara Baras, Ballet Flamenco? She was held over for several weeks in Madrid because she is so popular. She puts on a great performance.

Robert2533 - Can you tell me more about Sara Baras?

Sara Baras, from Cadiz, is considered to be the best flamenco dancer, and one of the best choreographers, alive today. She is well known internationally, but she only does stage performances (Ballet). You can check her web page at: http://www.sarabaras.com/

We have had the privilege of seeing her perform to standing ovation in both Paris and Madrid over the past three years. She is intense and makes flamenco a true art form. She was recently in New York and Los Angeles (UCLA).

http://www.esflamenco.com/bio/en10032.html
http://www.uclalive.org/event.asp?Event_ID=340
http://www.donquijote.org/culture/spain/dance/sara.asp
http://www.international.ucla.edu/ar...parentid=61554

Thanks, will get myself educated!

If you are looking for authenticity, then Sara Baras is not where you will find it, except for the last 5 minutes of the show when she and her dancers improvise.

Aficionados and Flamenco experts please excuse the lecture:

For those individuals who write that they are seeking "authentic Flamenco"

You should know that for that you need to appreciate the cante.

The heart of Flamenco is the "cante" (song) The guitar, which developed it's place in it's own right, was initially there to accompany the cante. The dancer is the further expression & interpretation of the cante. While there are many famous and accomplished dancers and guitarists, the essence, the base, from which Flamenco stems and evolves is (again) the cante.
It came first in the developement of the artform.

Ironically, despite it's importance the sad truth is some audiences can barely tolerate much less understand, the artistry of the cante.

So... understand that in order for that special night everyone asks about, to be really "authentic", it would have to be a night jammed packed with cante, lots & lots of it. Dancing yes, ok but not mandatory. Can you dig it? Not everyone can deal with hours and hours of Flamenco, much less hard core cante. It can be heavenly, but not for everybody on vacation.

Sara Baras is internationally respected and accomplished, as Robert mentioned. Do not dismiss these types of productions.

Many tablaos are reviewed on TA as well as Maribel's guides.Some have lots of tourists. Many have great performers.
There are many Flamenco websites. Beth Nesbitt of California has a news letter called Vida Flamenca in which she reviews local performaces in Granada, Sevilla & Jerez for 07, vidoes too.
E mail her [email protected]

It's not necesarily one or the other. After all Carmen Amaya cast her spell in many concert halls.
Anyway it's not like we need to choose sides, Callas or Tabaldi. There is room for both these days, no?

amsdon,

Thank you for sharing that information..I love Flamenco dance and am planning a trip to Spain and gathering all the information I can. A few years ago, I went to a concert here in the US that featured Farruquito and Farruco and Maria Pages....they were mesmerizing....I can't forget the energy and the sheer beauty of it all. How do you rate them for authenticity, while, of course, realizing they were in a commercial venue??

Traviata raises an interesting point: "How do you rate them for authenticity, while, of course, realizing they were in a commercial venue??"

We attended a flamenco performance in a commercial venue in Madrid. It reminded me of going to a jazz performance here in the states. The performers were being paid to perform, but they were clearly very much into what they were doing and, like jazz musicians, were clearly singing and dancing for each other more than for those of us who were paying the bills.
Was Charley Parker an inauthentic jazz musician because he played in clubs?

And I thank Amsdon for the information on cante; as wonderful as the dancing was, it was the singing that captured my soul.

Traviata & Aclislander:

There is so much out there to educate you on Flamenco, now that the web exists. In the old days we just died to see anything or anyone from Spain. And sometimes plain old average talent could move anywhere from Spain and become little celebrities with groupies (especially male singers.) Now the art form is so available to the masses via the web, and touring etc.You have Japanese Flamencos.
Does that dillute the art form? does it keep it more alive? ..do you have to be Gypsy? ... . so many opinions on that.

You ask who or what is really authentic. Many people think the only authentic flamenco is that portrayed in the 60's film "Los Tarantos" Carmen Amaya, queen of the gypsies, running around loving, feuding, suffering and dancing though all of it. Very romantic notion. But I loved it. By the way, rent it if you can, Gades was a kid in it. Be careful though some Flamenco films are sold PAL systems that are not compatible with others.

To your specific questions:

1. Farruquito and Farruco are a part of a legacy. The family is part of Gypsy royalty.
Check this out. http://www.esflamenco.com/bio/en10330.html
2. Maria Pages is from Seville, accomplished artist & choreographer. She has crossed over, she made money God forbid)in Riverdance. She was great in that. I think she has beautiful style, especially arms and body technique.
Read abou her here:
http://www.esflamenco.com/bio/en10169.html

Both artists you have mentioned have authenticity and are respected in different ways.

Both have been involved in or presented commercial performances.
That does not disqulaify then as real.
These artists must make their living after all.

Some produce their own "shows" and companies eventually. Others teach and have become revered as master teachers (Matilde Corral)

Here is a wesite that is helpful for those learning about Flamenco. It includes info about Pages and a small thing about the Farrucos. http://www.flamencobuzz.net/

Authenticicity? Expect many opinions. Flamenco does that. The only thing that all will agree on is that Flamenco reflects life. Flamenco stirrs people up sometimes. Sometimes it upsets people sometimes makes them happy.
That is what it is meant to do, move you in some way, even if it makes us disagree about what authentic Flamenco is...

amsdon,

So many thanks for so much information. I wish I had the opportunity to listen to you tell Flamencos story for hours and hours. I am glad to see you thought the dancers I mentioned were "authentic". Now I feel so fortunate to have been there that night. The two brothers danced in a way that was scarcely believable...their feet moved with such speed and when they turned their heads from side to side, the sweat flew across the stage. As for Maria, she is so fluid and yes, has such amazing movement. She had a solo performance, just her and a spotlight...when she was finished, there were several moments of total silence, as if the audience was stunned and could not believe what they had just watched....finally, the applause and bravos began...I don't think anyone wanted to let her go...

My pleasure...just remember that while there are many experts & opinions, those actively performing & living Flamenco today are never online!

I got into flamenco a few years ago and after months in Málaga taking classes from La Repompa and her daughter Raquel (see them both in short clips I took at: http://landofguirisvideos.ning.com/), studying flamenco history with Ramón Soler, spending entire nights out at peñas, dancing at parties, etc., there is nothing that makes me more annoyed then people who know nothing about the art saying "but I want something authentic." Why? So you can say that you saw something authentic? If you can't even gauge it then what is the huge difference?

My first performance was Sara Baras. I loved it. Afterwards I went out with her dancers and when morning rolled around, we were getting rowdy and out of control in downtown Boston. That was just a few months after my introduction into flamenco. One of her girls and I are good friends now and she is a fabulous dancer, but her best is when she is nameless, on the street at Carnaval in Cádiz, dancing around and having a good time, no costume, no lights. When she gets into the studio, it is another thing. . . professional and work. Still amazing, but with a different temperament. Same with her performances. Does that mean that on-stage she is not authentic? Not at all. It just means that she is working within a different setting and adjust to it (just like any artist), and that setting no longer does it for me.

I have heard a lot of people on here asking how to get access to these experiences and the truth is love and study. Back when I was a super fan, I really enjoyed going to shows and occasionally meeting people. It was thrilling, sort of an ego trip, especially among my flamenco-fan friends, but sometimes felt empty until I finally just went for it: moved to Málaga to study dance and flamenco history. That was when I started getting invited to weddings, festivals, parties, etc, and that is natural. Those people are my friends and they want me to be there the same that they will be at my wedding someday.

Flamenco exists in a grey area, especially for those on the outside looking in. It seems so interesting and heart-wrenching, and it is, but it is not in its nature to be at once authentic and accessible to the tourist. It began and will always be a family thing, and there are deep cultural aspects that one cannot just glean from a guidebook and say "OK, bring on the good stuff." Would you give a kid Cristal on his 21st birthday, only to see it swilled and appreciated in a novice way? Are you going to make your cheeseburger with Kobe beef? I should hope not. You want to reserve those things for those times and people who know how to appreciate, and flamenco is the same. Look for authenticity, enjoy the search, but when it comes down to it, if you don't even know what you are looking for, why is it so important?

On a more positive note, the audience is extremely important in flamenco, and even mediocre performances can and will strike a cord with you. The performers are very perceptive (especially in small venues), and love that you love them. So, whether you end up with something touristy or not, go in with the mentality that you will be moved and you probably will be. A lot of it depends on you.

To Amsdon and LaClaire,
I think that seeking "authenticity" is a sign of respect for the Spanish culture. Wanting to experience what is dear to Spanisards and asking where to find it is a way of getting to know the culture in its truest form. In a way, it is similar to seeking out the best paella or any other particular "art" form. As tourists, we sometimes are at a disadvantage in terms of being able to compare paellas, corridas, or flamenco to a standard. Thus the desire to seek out the best, the real or the true, herein called "authentic" for lack of a better word, as observed by locals or people better informed than us. Please don't categorize all tourists as a bumbling, uneducated lot.

I think Laclaire and Amsdon are not categorizing tourists as a "uneducated lot". But if you want to look at it that way...as I said before, Flamenco is not so popular..so let's say 90% of the spaniards are uneducated in everything related to flamenco For me, it's not more representative of our culture than sardana or jota aragonesa or galaic (celtic) music are. But no one seems to care about the latter
I have seen flamenco live once in my life..and it was at a tablao in Seville which name I don't remember ...with lots of other tourists (most of them Americans and Japanese). I'm not at all into flamenco so for me it was ok. The singer seemed pretty good because I was unable to understand him...