Nora_S

Betsy----there are no Lufthansa non-stop flights from Seattle to Germany now; the only airlines with non-stops to Europe are the ones I mentioned. But is looks like it is a possibility for the future. We are going in September, but that's probably too soon for the change that Gardyloo mentions.

Gardyloo---where could I find out more about this? Thanks.

Betsy

Oops! I didn't see Gardy's post before I replied.

Nora_S

Suze---thanks for your input. Is that LOL as in "laughing our loud" or "lots of luck"? I've heard it can mean both!!! It sounds like you don't care for the Portland idea. But we live in eastern Washington so either airport is a schlep for us.

So you haven't experienced the landing prolem on BA someone else mentioned?

Gardyloo

Don't look for any route changes this year; nothing is going to change that quickly. There's been talk about PDX loads since the flights were begun in '03 or '04. They key to discontinuing (or adding) routes these days is all about premium-class loads, not coach. BA, for example, can run 2 747s a day between London and Seattle because the business and first class cabins are jammed, mainly by people from certain large software or other major corporations in the Seattle area. Vancouver, by comparison, also has 2x BA 747s a day (as well as an Air Canada flight) but BA uses planes with fewer business class seats on those routes, because Vancouver is mainly a leisure market for the UK (big, but not spendy.) On the other hand, Vancouver has 2x Cathay Pacific flights daily to Hong Kong, mainly because those planes go out full in business and first, yielding lots more revenue than even full coach sections.

Portland may well send out full Lufthansa planes (in coach) every day, but it's what's up front that counts. (Meaning paid, not award or upgrade business/FC flyers.)

Lurk on flyertalk.com - LH and UA boards, Star Alliance board, and you'll see how it works.

suze

Oh, that would be me laughing out loud about driving to the Portland airport (but I live in downtown Seattle).

Actually we usually land on time at Heathrow but then they drive us around for about 1/2 hour waiting for a gate to open up to deplane. Don't remember exactly, but nothing that was a deal-breaker for me.

The two best tips I can give if you do go with BA: 1) get a seat assignment when you buy your ticket. They are stingy with them (make you wait until airport departure to give them out for about 1/3 of the plane) and I could not stand a middle seat on such a long flight! Secondly, they are strict with carry-on bags weight allowance, they mean business when they say 13 lbs. limit.

AisleSeat

We fly out of Seattle and are like you ... we want direct over the pole flights so it boils down to SAS, BA and KLM. Trust me a 9 1/2 hour flight is better than a 17 hour connection through Houston, Newartk, NY, Detroit, Chicago or Minneapolis.

For some reason we always end up on SAS and we love it. Haven't ever used the other two. We like the fact that the SAS and BA flights leave here at 7pm and you can have a meal, watch a movie, snooze a little and end up having breakfast over Europe. KLM on the other hand leaves in the middle of the day.

We like the Copenhagen airport although Heathrow, Gatwick and Schipol are all good too. We frequently make the next connecting flight on to Munich and if you are headed to Stuttgart I sure wouldn't fly to Frankfurt unless it is your first stop in Europe.

Have a good flight and a good trip.

suze

Opps, one more British Air cautionary note... Make sure your connection is Heathrow/Heathrow if you are continuing on. They sneak in those Heathrow/Gatwicks for about the same price, you need to be reading the fine print to avoid this unnecessary transfer if you are booking online yourself.

Nora_S

Thanks. I was thinking of Frankfurt because when I checked prices on SAS, it was a lot less expensive than flying to Stuttgart. Also, I thought we could spend our first night in St. Goar or someplace on the Rhine, before going on to Stuttgart. It looks like they are not so far apart by train.

Why do you recommend against Frankfurt? Is it a difficult airport?

Nora_S

Suze---thank you for the warning. Is there a way to tell in advance if the ongoing flight is from Gatwick before you buy the ticket? This happened to friends of ours going to Venice---they had to take a bus from one to the other and almost missed their flight, even though British booked them that way. I hate to think of trying to manage a transfer after sleeping (or not) on the plane and arriving all jet-lagged.

suze

Sure it's right there on the website flight schedule.

You just need to pay attention to those letters that are the abbreviation of the airport code name likely shown near the Arrival and Departure time... *before* purchasing anything, there's usually a small asterik that says change of airport required.

Or if I were talking to an agent on the telephone, I'd simply ask "this is IN and OUT of Heathrow, right? Please because I don't want to go to Gatwick!"

enzian

I find Gardyloo's information about the different clientele at Seattle vs. Vancouver very interesting. Also that they would configure the planes differently for each market. I wondered why there were so many business class seats in the BA planes (we start in Seattle). But we did go business class once (with miles tickets) and it was very nice---even with the weird landing I mentioned above.

rkkwan

enzian - Going around during an approach is quite common. If you fly often enough, you'll experience it. You're just lucky to have both on BA.

It's especially common at busy airports like LHR. For example, your plane is preparing to land. The one that landed in front of you for some reason didn't clear the runway in time, then you go around.

When things like that happen, the pilots will be very busy communicating with the tower to fly the correct pattern to line up for landing again. It's extremely crucial, as at LHR, if you look in the sky, you may see planes all over. The pilots simply do not have time to explain to you what's going on. They're 100% focused on communicating with the tower.

artlover

Nora, I'm glad you posted this. As a Seattlite, I'm following this threat with much interest. The only thing I don't love about living in Seattle is the LOOOONG FLIGHTS getting to Europe. We've done BA and NW and of the two, would pick NW, though BA does have better deals, but since that's out for you, well, that's out for you. DH and I really do not like Heathrow at all.

From what everyone has said so far, it sounds like SAS might just be the best solution for you.

Gardyloo, great information, as always. Hope this happens soon, though it won't be soon enough for Nora and her family. Now if someone would only fly directly to Paris...last time we flew into Paris, we actually flew down to LA first, but my best friend's there, so it wasn't as crazy as it sounds.

For me, the thought of starting a trip driving down to Portland and then having to drive back afterwards sounds very tiring, but, maybe it would make sense to fly the distance? Of course, then you still have to deal with SEATAC, but at least you could get a direct flight to your destination.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

enzian

rkkwan---thank you, it's helpful to know that "going around" is not a crisis situation. I guess I don't fly all that much, and to have it happen twice, on the same airline, just seemed odd. I thought maybe it was a BA policy thing---go back up if you have any doubts. In both cases they explained (eventually) that it was due to traffic that was too close ahead. But we had some anxious moments before they explained. But I guess if you are going to do that, it's nice to be in a 747. If it happens again, I won't worry so much. Again, thanks.

Gardyloo

Going around because of a pilot's misjudgement of his/her approach is not a good thing - for the pilot. Companies don't like having planes arrive late or full of nervous pax. At airports like LHR or LAX going around can mean having to re-enter the "stack" with consequent loss of time and allocated landing "slots" - sometimes resulting in long delays before a second approach can be completed.

Going around because of air traffic control instructions is arguably worse - somebody was doing (or not doing) sometthing they weren't supposed to do.

It does indeed happen and not that infrequently, and it's certainly better than the alternative. But it's not anything the airlines or air traffic people are happy about.

Pulling up and going around in a 747 after a 10 hour flight is no fun for anybody.

enzian

The first time, coming into Heathrow, was just days after the war In Iraq started, and everyone was a bit twitchy. The pilot said (right away, thankfully) that there was a helicopter too close to the runway. The second time, coming into SeaTac, the pilot didn't say anything for ten minutes. We had the impression it was a mistake by air traffic control; maybe he was discussing it with them before coming on with the reassurance to the passengers. He said he "wasn't comfortable" with the distance between us and the plane ahead. I think it bothered me so much that time because the kids were with us, and I could see how frightened they were.

vedette

Two engines vs four? No offense, but if you are truly concerned about whether the plane can make it to your destination I don't think you are a good candidate for any form of travel, except perhaps walking.

fritzrl

I'll chime in quickly here, as well.

First, regarding BA: I've flown them from SEA to Europe twice, first time in business class (company paid), second time in deluxe coach. Service was excellent both times, altho one would expect that in business, I spoze. I was willing to pay the premium for deluxe coach because it's a looooong flight to Heathrow from Seattle, and I'm a very tall guy. That said, the folks in the regular coach seats seemed to be well attended-to and comfortable, as well -- and all coach sections had identical meals served.

Second, regarding where to stay a night or two before boarding in Frankfurt to return. I would recommend either Baden-Baden or Wiesbaden. Both are a relatively short train ride away from the Deutsche Bahn station underneath FRA (Wiesbaden is closer), and both are charming and relaxing small cities. The bonus is that both cities also have traditional and beautiful German "Therme" (Spas), where one can soak away the travel blues, and give oneself a final treat before boarding the plane home.

Fritzl

Nora_S

Thank you all for your help. Vedette, my "2 versus 4" comment was a direct quote from something I read in another discussion. I read a lot of them before asking my own question, because I was afraid of responses like yours. The person I quoted said he was an aircraft mechanic. I'm not worried whether the plane can make it; just want to know if one is safer than the other.

Is there some way to save all this information? Do they delete a discussion eventually? Or are there folders or anything so I can find it again? Or do I just print it out?

From the helpful input I have received, I think I like the Lufthansa flight from Pportland, but I will have to talk to my family about changing our plans that way. If that won't work it appears from your comments that either British and Scandinavian is just fine.

Fritzl, thank you for the pre-return flight lodging suggestions. I will look into Wiesbaden; that sounds just right.

olyman

Wow! Is everybody on this site from the Pacific Northwest. It must be the hours spent daydreaming and planning summer vacations after the winter we've had. Nora, we've been to Baden Baden several times and keep coming back when we want a place to unwind and get ready to return. We usually stay at one of the smaller hotels in the pedestrian only area rather than the bigger resort hotels. For us, we will be able to catch an early train to the Frankfurt airport in time for our return flight to Portland. If you are looking for any other great areas for family gatherings, check out Meeersburg on the Bodensee. There are lots of varied things to do there from just lounging around to hiking, biking, taking ferry boats over to Switizerkand, and even golfing.