Hi everyone, we are going to europe for three weeks and as such plan on going to germany, italy and switzerland. I feel as though the trip is going to be very rushed with lots of driving but am not sure since I've never done it.

Few questions:

1. We are arriving in Dusseldorf - from there we plan on going to nuremberg. That is a long drive and am wondering are there any things to see on the way to break up the trip? I don't want to start with a four hour drive

2. We are planning on seeing nuremberg, dinkelsbuhl, nordlingen, neuschwanstein castle and then off to venice. Does this sound like a good germany itinerary? Anything that we should add or take out? We took out berlin because driving wise its so out of the way.

3. How about on the way from the castle to venice - its going to be a long drive and am wondering if there are better more broken up ways to get to italy, while seeing cities on the way. What do you think?

4. In italy we are doing venice -> florence -> siena -> rome. Rome is really far south compared to these other places and will add at least 6 hours total to the drive. Do you think its worth it? Would it be better to add those hours to seeing one of the other cities we will be seeing? My husband says seeing rome is a must.

5. Since we are leaving from dusseldorf, we are going to have a long drive up from italy. We were thinking of stoping in lucerne or bern to break it up. Again, we are short on time but I want to avoid the long drives. Any ideas??

In summary our trip is like this (3 weeks total):

dusseldorf arrive -> nuremberg -> dinkelsbuhl -> nordlingen -> munich -> neuschwanstein -> venice -> florence -> siena -> rome -> lucerne -> bern -> rothenberg -> depart from dusseldorf.

Any suggestions? Ideas? Ways to minimize driving if at all possible?

Some thoughts
Yes a long drive. Motorways like motorways all over Western Europe pretty good with some local fees to pay.

Some of these cities are just not very well designed for cars. So Venice, florence and Siena just don't have easy parking while Rome is not so great.

If you do want to do this rent a good car with ability to hide stuff away in the locked area. Trains are another option, all three countries have great train systems so this is a real option. Maybe try the dbahn web site to see what you could do for what cost. It is also possible to fly but you may end up with airportitiss

You could do three weeks in Germany alone (easily) or three weeks in Italy or three weeks in Switzerland. That would minimize the driving immensely. You could also take the train, which is what I would do, but know that some insist on driving.

There are so many places in Germany you are not seeing. I don't know what to suggest. After a similarly long trip to Europe our first time, we decided to do more concentrated visits, thereby minimizing the transport time and maximizing the time IN the places we wanted to be.

Another thought is to fly back from Rome to Dusseldorf. That would save alot of time if there is a cheap flight between the two.

Its a really hard decision because I have never been to these places so I have no idea what it is like or what I will like. I kinda wanted to get a "taste" of each country but not too little of a taste, you know? Are the places we are seeing in germany recommended sites? Where else would you see?

When you say that those cities in italy aren't very conducive to driving, what do you mean exactly? theres no parking? My husband thought it would be better to drive so that we could see the areas in between as we were driving - i don't know. Maybe drive through germany, drop the car off and take a train to italy if that is possible?

Why isn't Rothenburg at the beginning with Nuremberg?

Best way to minimize driving hassles: Don't drive. It's crazy IMO to consider driving into Munich, Venice (no roads there!) Florence, and Rome. And as you point out, the distances are uncomfortably long. Don't work so hard.

You can often get cheap advance-purchase train tickets at

http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en

For D'dorf - Rothenburg, I checked a random day in September - the 15th. Some departures are only 29 euros per person, others 39 or 49.

The same page shows Munich to Rome at 63 Euros.

You could probably piece together an itinerary fairly cheaply like this getting point-to-point tickets.

Or make it simplere go for a 3-country railpass (Germany, Italy, Switzerland) and avoid passing through Austria (or pay the fare through it.) An 8-day saver pass for $561 each would do it; then use the "Bayern Ticket" (Daypass for Bavaria, covers 2-5 people) for getting around Germany from about Rothenburg south.)

The car rental was $750 - we definitely want to get from point A to point B cheapest as possible. I just did a sample itinerary for a train pass and it cost $1000 - i am wondering what makes it so expensive, is it crossing country borders or distances or what?

Any other help? This is so confusing!

The car rental is $750 + gas at $6+ per gallon, plus parking fees, plus vignette fees for certain countries, plus road tolls in certain places, plus any radar speed tickets or parking tickets you may pick up along the way, plus deductibles for any damage you incur on your car.

Hi sm,

1. For train fares: go to www.railsaver.com and click "only if it saves money". If they tell you not to buy a pass, you can believe them. Am more accurate method is to go to www.bahn.de for Germany, www.trenitalia.com for italy, and http://www.sbb.ch/en/index.htm for CH.

B. You are making the usual rookie mistake of trying to "get a taste of everything" and piling too much on your plate. Look at a map on www.viamichelin.com and check driving times. Also add some time to pack and unpack as well as check out and check in. See how many days you lose hopping from place to place.

BTW, who will be doing the packing and unpacking.

C. Any one of the the 3 countries will keep you busy for three weeks.
I suggest Germany and Switzerland, or Switzerland and Italy, but not all three.

Enjoy your planning.

I disagree with ira. With 3 weeks, I don't think you are biting off too much at all by seeing a little in 3 countries. You just need to do this smartly. I took a closer look at the options. Here's a rough plan for you.

"dusseldorf arrive -> nuremberg -> dinkelsbuhl -> nordlingen -> munich -> neuschwanstein -> venice -> florence -> siena -> rome -> lucerne -> bern -> rothenberg -> depart from dusseldorf."


Germany: 7 days

Railpass day 1: D'dorf to Nuremberg.
(Do any daytrips from there to Rothenburg, etc, on a 28-Euro Bayern ticket; use the Bayern ticket to go to Munich and N'stein as well.)

Switzerland: 4 days

Railpass day 2: Munich to Luzern/Bern - Bernese Oberland??

(I would spend all 4 days in the Bernese Oberland - Interlaken/Lauterbrunnen area - instead, and use just one railpass day. But if you are sold on Luzern and Bern for some reason, you'll need another travel day.)


Italy: 9-10 days

Railpass day 3: Bern to Rome (4 nights)
Railpass day 4: Rome to Florence (4 nights? , daytrip to Siena - get regular tickets, fairly cheap)
Railpass day 5: Florence to Venice (2 nights)

Fly Ryanair from Venice to Dusseldorf (some tickets as low as 19 Euros based on a casual check.)

Two 5-day 3-country railpasses cost $784; you're unlikely to spend more than $1000 altogether this way.

I guess it would be nice to know the time of year. If its late in the year then Italy will be significantly warmer.

Italian cities and towns of a traditional type will have a motorway near by and then both poor parking and hard access. So Siena is sourounded by car parks. Venice of course has canals so again you park out of the city. Rome is not too bad. German cities are more like US cities so easier to get into and lets face it Germans love cars.

Like many of the above I might look at just one or two countries. My favorite would be southern Germany which could provide 3 weeks fun. If you want to see more variation so may head towards the border of Austria and Germany and that also allows you slip into other countries.

More research. What do you like doing?

On day 1, I assume you're arriving after a long overnight flight. You will be exhausted, no time to get acquainted with the German autobahn. And you'll feel the effects of jet lag for at least 1 or 2 more days. So definitely train from Dusseldorf to Nuremburg. Pick up a car there for the Romantic Road (Rothenburg to Neuschwanstein). For Neuschwanstein you can stay at Hohenschwangau, at the base of the castle -- rather than Fussen.

Drop the car in Munich, train to Switzerland. No need for a car in Switzerland. In fact, it's a disadvantage. Some of the prettiest mountain villages are car-free. But the public transportation (trains, buses, and boats) is wonderful in Switzerland, very modern, clean, and always connecting perfectly.

In fact, I think you don't want a car again unless you plan to wander around little Tuscan hilltowns. You don't want a car in Venice, Florence, or Rome. You can do Siena as a daytrip by bus from Florence.

Finally are you tied to Dusseldorf for your return? If so, fly from Rome to Dusseldorf. Ryanair flies (cheaply) from Rome Ciampino to Weeze, which is somewhere near Dusseldorf. Air Berlin flies from Rome Fiumicino to DUS. Otherwise fly home directly from Rome. This will save you precious time backtracking.

Just want to point out you can see the scenery just as well from a train. In fact, better because the driver doesn't have to keep his eye on the road, and the navigator doesn't have to keep reading maps. Plus the train, even in second class, has roomy, comfortable seats, with a toilet at the end of the car. I love riding trains in Europe.

"Ways to minimize driving" Yes... take the train!

I'd get a car for Germany, but then do Switzerland and Italy by train. It would be much easier and more relaxing imo.

Have you already purchased plane tickets? If not, look into flying into Germany but out of Rome. That would save you a lot of time and aggravation 'backtracking' at the end of your trip.

looks like my husband is insisting on the car! so hopefully i'm not going to feel like i'm stuck in the car the whole time. He wants to be able to stop along the way and see more remote parts, little villages etc.

Hi smr00,

That's ok for rural Italy, but in Switzerland (as Mimar noted) the sweetest villages and all the mountaintops are car-free. Car-free. Really! And they are the place to be!

There really isn't anyplace you (as a first-time visitor) will want to see or stop at in Switzerland that would be inconvenient with a train. I know it's something that we Americans don't think of first, but do consider it. Trains in Switzerland are a lot of FUN: eat fresh bread and Swiss cheese, have a conversation, rub shoulders with some actual residents . . . . really. It is THE way to go.

s

Okay, so where can I find the cheapest rail passes? Do I just buy a pass for all of switzerland and just take it whenever I want or do the times/dates have to be established ahead of time?

Also, how much time will this save us?

I think it makes send to take a train from switzerland back to germany and also from germany to italy. Now, how about within germany?? If we take a train, we may be able to go directly to berlin from dusseldorf and have to avoid the four hour drive. I have no idea, its honestly so overwhelming all the options.

Hi again,

You may not need a pass at all. You need to get the point-point fares for all your trips first, add them up, and then see if a pass makes sense.

Again, you can get the schedules for all trains on the continent at either the German or the Swiss train sites,

www.bahn.de

www.rail.ch

But generally get the fares for the journeys from that country's site.

I'll add that I usually get a Half Fare Card for Switzerland; it costs 99 chf and gives you half off every train, cable car, and ferry in the country for one month.

(Remember that you both can doze on the train; it's not unusual to see folks nodding off . . .)

I hope you fall in love with the trains, like so many of us have!

(Remember also it's the green way to go)

s

So i just checked a trip from dusseldorf to munich is 254 euros - that seems like a lot. Maybe I need to keep looking.

The German part of your itinerary is quite car-friendly. The Düsseldorf- Nürnberg leg at the beginning is indeed too much after a transatlantic flight. It also uses some of Europe's busiest (and often jammed) freeways.
So please no whining from hubby if you guys find yourself in a 10km traffic jam.

From Füssen/castles to Venice, you have many options.
The most convinient should be Füssen-Innsbruck-Brenner pass-(Italy)-Verona-Venice.
For some added scenery turn East after Brenner pass via SS49/51 to Cortina, and then further South to Venice.
The motorway-only option is 500kms (some 300mls) - and I would not call that a LONG drive. You should easily do it in 5-6 hours without rushing yourself. (Unless you picked a holiday/vacation weekend and Brenner pass is jammed).

In Italy, you take a car to see exactly those cities that are well connected by railways. I don't see much of the "stop along the way and see remote parts".
If you want to see those parts, you will have to drive there, e.g. explore Tuscany, or Umbria, or whatever area where having a car makes some sense after all.
Don't expect the regular highways which often parallel the motorways to be their scenic cousins. Especially in countries with motorway tolls, the regular major highways also serve as major arteries for regional traffic or those who want to avoid the toll. You will have to get off and away from those major roads to experience "the remote parts".
Make your husband familiarize himself BEFORE the trip with Italian traffic laws, e.g. in major cities, if, how, or when you may enter the historic inner cities with your rental car. I would suggest that you don't, since hardly anyone seems to be able to understand the signage. Especially not on a first trip.
Try to overnight in small towns or villages that are easier to access (at least to the first gate of the old fortifications), than downtown Florence, at 10pm, searching that cute little hotel that looked so nice on the web. If staying in big cities in inevitable, try to find hotels at the edge of the historic districts, on or near major arteries so you can actually find them and leave your car in the hotel garage.
Please no post-trip whining about ZTL fines or speeding tickets.

In Switzerland, avoid the car-free areas. Why get a car and then dump it for days in a car park. The Engadine is a nice place to drive around, all way into Ticino or the Lombardian lakes area.

It will be hard to offer you precise advice where to stop overnight or which route to take since you cover such a huge area. There will probably be 10K nice villages along your route worth visiting.

Get GPS. And make sure that also Italy is loaded into the system.

Get Xanax.

Hi again,

Right now the DB is running a special for anywhere within Germany for 49E. Also, you can generally get great discounts if you buy early, as early as three months out.

Don't give up on the trains!

I also love taking trains in Germany though so many Americans drive here, drives me nuts!

s