At this stage, all we know is "we're going to Europe". There is a HUGE gap between this decision and actually getting there! I'm sufferring information overload at the moment. I can get more information than I can possibly need on individual cities/regions/countries, but how do I decide which of these we should visit? How do I make sure I'm not missing out on something vital to a first trip to Europe? HELP!! Here are our vital statistics: <BR> <BR>-Married couple <BR>-Mid-twenties <BR>-Australian <BR>-Planning to fly into London and take about 4-6 weeks from there. <BR>-Reasonably fit <BR>-Considered coach-tours, looking for alternatives. <BR>-Planning to spend no more than $A15k (around $US10k), but much less if possible. <BR> <BR>We want to be able to 'experience' Europe (to a certain extent, anyway), not just 'see' it (one of the reasons we're considering alternatives to the coach tours). <BR> <BR>Any ideas?? <BR>

First of all, you can't see all there is to see in Europe in a lifetime, let alone 4 weeks. However, it is a good start. One thing you didn't mention in your post was what kind of sightseeing you enjoyed. If you like monuments and museums, London is a good start, followed by Paris. Start up by making a list of the things that you will like to see (a wish list). Then trim the list to accomodate available ime and monies. <BR> <BR>Keep reading this forum. You'll get great ideas!

When I was 19, my mom bought us Eurail Passes that were good for 3 weeks from the time they were activated. We flew into Heathrow, toured England and then took the train at Victoria Station which connects with the train "On the Continent" via a lovely boat crossing for train passengers only. The boat trip took an hour or so and by the time we could no longer see the lovely cliffs of Dover, we were in Calais. The train then proceeded across the palins of France and you get the point....you look at a Eurail Map and decide where and when you want to disembark. You will get real good at rail maps and schedules; you will also learn how to hoist your luggage over your head into the racks; and you will learn how to be on the correct half of the train to go into a particular city!Also you will learn how to change your money before banks close for the weekend...I could go on and on. Its a great experience!

Debbie, <BR>To simplify your dilemma, consider this: You now know that "we're going to Europe" but you're suffering from information overload. Before considering where to go and what to see, first consider why you're going to go. Is it because of interests in history, geography, art or diverse cultures? Your interests and those of your husband should dictate where to go and what to see. Consider, too, that to "experience" Europe rather than just "see" it involves a perspective that differs from those offered by tour companies. The visitor to Melbourne, Sydney or Canberra may "see" Australia but assuredly has not "experienced" Australia and its diversity. So, too, with Europe; Paris is not France nor is London Great Britain. At best the two cities are appetizers to a much larger meal. I've been to Paris many times, yet never met its mayor. One afternoon in the small Austrian village of Hallstatt, I spent a delightful two hours conversing with its mayor who shared a bench with me in the village's small plaza. Meeting Europeans and experiencing Europe in depth rarely happens in its large cities; it happens in the farming villages of Normandy, the market towns of Germany and the festivals of Belgium. <BR> <BR>Identify your interests, then plan a route that satisfies them. Consider travel by rental auto which can result in significant cost savings while allowing great flexibility in setting itineraries. The auto allows you to stay in a suburban B&B, gasthaus or auberge at considerable savings over an in-city hotel and encourages your interaction with a proprietor or innkeeper rather than a hotel desk clerk. <BR> <BR>Feel free to Email me directly if you'd like some suggestions for itineraries, but identify your interests first. <BR>

Debbie, I'll bet there are at least 3 or 4 places or sites that you both have always dreamed of seeing. Perhaps it's the Louvre or the statue of David in Florence or any corner of Venice, or the Acropolis. (All of which I highly recommend!) <BR>Perhaps it would help if you identified the places that, if this were to be your only trip to Europe (heaven forfend), you absolutely must see. Then perhaps you can put together a reasonable itinerary that will include those musts, but that will also let you experience other things, other places. By reasonable, I mean within time, within stamina, within budget. <BR>Certainly you should count on missing something "vital", it's impossible to see all the wonders of the whole continent. <BR>As discussed here before, and some people do disagree, the coach tour will let you tick a large number of places off your list so you can say you "saw" them, but it will not let you stop and linger, it will probably not let you loaf away an afternoon in a cafe (that is, not unless you don't mind missing your only opportunity to see the Louvre) and it will not let you decide to skip a place and move on to the next. <BR>It will conveniently and hopefully efficiently transport you from one place to the next. <BR>You've received good advice from the other posters. Think of renting a car, or buying a rail pass. You can fly into a London airport, change planes to transfer to Paris or Rome or wherever, and start your trip on the continent. You can end in London for a few days if you like. If you then <BR>plan your route with the "musts" in mind, you have people here (experts like wes and others) who can make suggestions on the itinerary. Again, you need to be explicit on whether you like cities,museums, churches,countryside, or a little of each. <BR>When are you going? If soon, you may be running into a problem with hotel bookings. The sooner you make some decisions the better. Unless the two of you are so laid-back that you're willing to sleep in the car if all the lower-cost hotels are booked.

Since you say you want to "experience" Europe, and since you also are going to have a long trip, I would seriously consider spending a week in one place where you can rent a home/villa/cottage and stay for a while. You could rent in Tuscany, or Dordogne, or the English Lake District or whatever interests you. It means that you will get a chance to rest your weary feet, do some laundry, and really live in an area for a little while. Also, you can save some meal money during that time, and weekly rentals can be more reasonable than hotels. If a week in the countryside doesn't appeal, consider an apartment in London, Paris, or Florence. The key is to relax, and take a little time. Enjoy what you are seeing, and don't worry about what you may be missing. <BR> <BR>To fully enjoy the trip, you must assume that you WILL be back. It might not happen, but if you start thinking like this is the only trip to Europe you will ever take, you will definitely spend too much time running around, and not enough enjoying. After all, you are only in your 20's. You WILL be back. <BR> <BR>You've gotten lots of good advice from the other posters. I particularly like Elaine's advice, that the only vital things are the places you've always dreamed of seeing. <BR> <BR>One more thought.. the planning can be half the fun. Don't feel too overwhelmed to enjoy this part.

There was a whole string a while ago, under "PLANNING ALMOST AS FUN AS THE TRIP", with various posters' methods on how they plan their trips. It may seem daunting, but Beth is right: the planning is half the fun, and not as hard as you think, once you get going. The Web has lots of info from the various tourist bureaus, municipalities, etc. I've gotten great off-beat ideas from...don't laugh... cooking magazines and Vogue. And I would give my right arm ('course, I'd have trouble dragging my suitcase around) for four to six weeks in Europe!

I think that the process of deciding 'why' we want to go to Europe could lead to divorce proceedings! Sean (my husband) and I have very different tastes, but I think he's happy to let me do the planning and just go along for the ride (he's asked me to present him with 'progress reports' every now and then!). <BR>I guess my main reasons for going to Europe are to experience the different cultures (not only compared to Australia, but compared to each other as well) and to immerse myself in it's history. Coming from a country which was 'settled' only around 200 years ago, to stand next to something built/painted/sculpted thousands of years ago would be mind-blowing. I also want to gawk at the amazing natural scenery (mountains, lakes, fields etc). <BR>Beth, thankyou SO MUCH for reminding me that I WILL be back (several times, hopefully). I can now see things in perspective, and if I miss something 'vital' this time around, I'll just put it at the top of the 'next-time' list. Maybe I should remind myself that this should be an enjoyable experience, and to stop stressing so much over it! <BR>I've been considering the "base city day trip" method - maybe a week in each of London, Paris, Switzerland, Rome. And if time and money permits, the Greek Islands as well. What do you think? <BR>Elvira, I had a gander at the string you mentioned - it's great! Thanks! <BR>Thanks for all your advice, guys. <BR> <BR>P.S. Elaine - we'll be going mid next year.

One more thing - to what extent should we book things in advance? Should we book all accommodation, rail tickets/car hire, etc. before we leave, or just wing it when we get there? Or somewhere in between? <BR>Ta. <BR>

All of the above advice is terrific and exactly how we've developed itineraries for our last two trips and the one this fall. Rental cars should be done before you leave home, rates are much better. Therefore, you must choose your start and stop. Those locations should have reservations. In between depends alot on the time of year, festivals and city versus countryside. Next consider your flexibility and comfort levels - facilities, location and price. For example in Paris and Vienna have very distinct neighborhoods, do you want to stay in Venice if that is a city you will want to see. These usually book earlier than the country side. Also, you may want to get a book (we usually use Rick Steves, but again, find a book that follows how you want to travel) Are you in for 5 star hotels or small pensions. As stated earlier, planning is great fun and you will enjoy the locations more when you get there.

Hi again <BR>"Mid year" is a very popular time, so after you narrow things down I suggest you book as many hotels in advance as possible. The small,popular, budget- and moderately-priced hotels that we all read about book up early, often six months or more in advance. <BR>As an American I can totally understand your awe at buildings and art that were created many centuries ago. Our modern civilizations may be more profitable, more efficient, even perhaps more in tune with the future, but we are not sculpting any Davids or building any <BR>Notre Dames. <BR>Your daytrip idea is excellent. To base yourself in London, Paris, or Rome for <BR>5-7 days at a time will let you see some of the highlights of each city as well as some of the neighboring towns and sights.Perhaps between Switzerland and Rome you can find time for Venice, a place I love down to my toes. However, after such a long trip, I suggest you think about spending the last 5-7 days of your trip in a beautiful spot like Lake Como, or a Greek island, or Tuscany where the sightseeing "requirements" are little or none, and the scenic beauty and relaxation are all. <BR>Enjoy your planning.

Hi again <BR>"Mid year" is a very popular time, so after you narrow things down I suggest you book as many hotels in advance as possible. The small,popular, budget- and moderately-priced hotels that we all read about book up early, often six months or more in advance. <BR>As an American I can totally understand your awe at buildings and art that were created many centuries ago. Our modern civilizations may be more profitable, more efficient, even perhaps more in tune with the future, but we are not sculpting any Davids or building any <BR>Notre Dames. <BR>Your daytrip idea is excellent. To base yourself in London, Paris, or Rome for <BR>5-7 days at a time will let you see some of the highlights of each city as well as some of the neighboring towns and sights.Perhaps between Switzerland and Rome you can find time for Venice, a place I love down to my toes. However, after such a long trip, I suggest you think about spending the last 5-7 days of your trip in a beautiful spot like Lake Como, or a Greek island, or Tuscany where the sightseeing "requirements" are little or none, and the scenic beauty and relaxation are all. <BR>Enjoy your planning.

For what it's worth (which is after all, very little, this is your trip), since you seem particularly interested in art, you might want to consider Florence if you have the time. Again, I only mention it because you specifically mentioned art, and I've yet to meet an art lover who doesn't love Florence. Good luck planning your trip!

Debbie, If you are planning to use "base city day trips", I would recommend using the guide book by Earl Steinbicker "Daytrips in Britain". (He also has them for Germany, France, Italy, and Holland.) We found it very useful on our trip to England last year. We spent 10 days in London, taking day trips out on the train. The books are set up for use with rail, bus or car. I would suggest using the train if you are going to stay in the "big" cities. We found the book gave us all the information we needed for getting around. They include walking maps of the destination, sights, and suggestions for when to go. They even tell you which train station to use, and how long the trip takes. Have fun with your planning. If you want more information on our day trips in Britain feel free to e-mail me.

I think your idea of basing in cities and taking day trips is a pretty good one. You can certainly see a lot this way. But on such a long trip you may find it would be nice to get out in the countryside some. Maybe spend a few days in the French countryside between Paris and Rome, or plan a stop in the Italian Lakes or Tuscany. And definitely plan to wind down the trip with some "down time" as Cheryl suggested. Personally, I would probably save Greece for a future trip, as the travel time to get there is long (unless you plan to fly from Italy). If you want to end with something peaceful you could certainly find such in Italy, since your itinerary seems to start in the UK and end up in Rome. <BR> <BR>One more idea to consider is a brief tour, maybe a special interest type. You sound like you are not really into getting a car and driving yourself. If you go to Florence you could take a short (4 days or so) wine tour in Tuscany. Or from Paris you could take a 4 or 5 day tour to see the Chateaux along the Loire. So rather than taking a 4 week bus tour, maybe trying to fit in some shorter tours would appeal. There are lots of web sites to get ideas. <BR> <BR>Oh yes, and the Daytrips book mentioned above is great. I used "50 Daytrips from London" and it was one of the most practical and most useful guidebooks I've ever owned. It definitely helped me to fit more sightseeing into a day than I thought I could because it was so organized.

Lou, <BR>I've just done a search on Amazon.com and found that almost all of the Steinbicker books are out of print. Are they worth searching out? Any other suggestions? Thanks!

hcw, <BR>Check www.alibris.com which has a vast inventory of out of print books. You may have luck there.

My husband always hits the library and checks out as many books as he can on our destination. Even if they are slightly out of date, when we find one we enjoy as a potential valuable resource, we can buy the newest. Also, anything out of print may be right under your nose (or just down the street) in the public library. <BR>Me, I hit the web.

Debbie, <BR>I think the "Daytrip" books are very good and worth finding (if possible). I bought ours last year, (probably the end of '97) and in the back of the book it says they can be purchased directly through the publisher. So, you might try them to see if they can help you find them. <BR>Hastings House <BR>141 Halstead Avenue <BR>Mamaroneck, NY 10543 <BR>Good luck.

Yes, planning a trip to Europe can be difficult, but it should be fun also. Try not to see everything. Be selective and go for the best, not always the most popular. Mix small town, outdoor activities with cities. Try to visit some places only found between the pages along with the popular but worthy places. Make a wish list, cut and slash days and places, and then see if your places make sense both geographically and transportation wise. If you have any other questions, please feel free to contact me. I have traveled Europe for the last 10 years and have a lot of experience - plus hard knocks of course - with planning my own trips. If you wish, I could draw up your own tour for you using trains in Europe. Good luck!