Hi premal.

We have always taken our girls with us to very fine restaurants here in California, D.C., and England, France and Italy. Our girls have always been exposed to restaurant dinning and their manners are usually superb. Of all the places we have gone with our kids, I would have to say that London was the only city where the kids were not immediately welcomed. Fortunately, we were with a major celebrity that the restaurants trip over themselves to attract. We were not blantently snubbed. The kids behaved beautifully, but I do not think I would attempt such outtings on our own. Some of the ITalian restaurants are very good and they welcome kids.

We are so lucky in the US as restaurants often bend over backwards to accomodate wee diners. It is a tough call as I understand the apprehension of leaving your child in the care of a total stranger especially in a foreign country. I would venture out into lesser restaurants and save the gourmet excursions when you start travelling with a nanny or a relative who can watch the kids back at the hotel. Or else be prepared to get up and leave the restaurant once the baby starts crying and your meal is about to be served. Good luck. You will eventually get the hang of it.

Leslie, have you ever eaten in a restaurant in Britain? Crying babies are not going to get any positive attention from other, adult, diners.

And the time difference is 8hrs.

Barbara, I go to London every year. So, to answer your question, yes, I have eaten in many restaurants from casual to expensive in London and many other cities within Europe, the US and Canada, and infants and older children have been in these restaurants.

I don't have a phobia about children or infants, and as long as parents are attentive, I don't mind seeing them in restaurants or on airplanes. I've also been in many churches where there have been crying babies and I have never seen a parishoner cringe during a service.

I would think it would be easier to travel with an infant than an unruly older child.

Many years ago, when I was 3 years old, my Dad had a business dinner to go to with the president (and his wife) of the company that he worked for. This business dinner was very important to my Dad's career. My Mother also needed to accompany my Dad to this dinner. At the last minute the baby sitter cancelled out, and my Mother was not going to join my Dad at dinner. The president of the company's wife called my Mother and told her to bring me along. Well, I went to this adult dinner at a very exclusive French restaurant in Manhattan, and sat on telephone books so I could reach the table. This restaurant was not child friendly 42 years ago. Well, I had my first encounter with tasting escargot, and even though I was well behaved, I vomited all over the table at this very expensive restaurant. Both my parents were mortified. The president of the company laughed and said to my Dad that he didn't care for his meal either, and his children also didn't like escargot.

By the way, my Dad got the promotion.

I posted a very erudite reply to Miss Obx, but Daniel Mangin and The Sweeney at Fodors have taken the liberty of deleting it. This is fast becoming a NO FUN ZONE. I will soon be listening to Chanel 4 radio programmes for a razzle.

I would far rather eat at any restaurant that admits a couple with their 4 month old baby, than at any establishment that would seat ThinGorjus.

Practically speaking, what you need to decide and base your decisions upon - - is how comfortable you feel with your baby at the restaurant with you. Which means that you need to go in pursuit of some fine dining with him/her in your own locale ASAP.

We enjoyed fine dining on more than one occasion when our first daughter was six months and under. Typically, she sat in an infant seat, placed on the floor out of the way and slept through our entire dinner. From the time she was about 1, and when we had two and then three, under age four - - then we had to do "fine dining out" - - withOUT them, for a number of years afterwards.

Best wishes,

Rex

While I don't have any experience with infants in nice restaurants in England/Scotland, I can give you some tips from our years with infants; our kids are now 8 & 4, and are well-behaved nice-restaurant customers.

When our kids were infants, the big problem was the unpredictability - you can't know which night will be a "good" night for them.

In the U.S., especially in tourist areas, many restaurants are happy to prepare food to go (whether or not they have a take-out menu). Dinner in your hotel room can be less scenic, but also less stressful for parents. Lunchtimes at any restaurant tend to be less formal, so a kid can be less inappropriate then. Eating on the earlier side, too, is an option, though the restaurants are more likely to be quiet then, so there's less cover noise. Restaurants with outdoor seating can be good, too. Sometimes restaurants have more casual bar sections, at which you can order and eat the same food that's available in the main restaurant. Ethnic restaurants tend to be more casual and can have fantastic food. We've occasionally hired baby-sitters, though that's less nerve-wracking when the kids are older.

When in doubt about taking an infant/child, we've called the restaurant to ask - we figure they've at least been warned if the restaurant says infants/kids are welcome.

As the old adage goes, "Children should be seen but not heard..."

Truly, it is terribly inconsiderate to bring an infant to a "fine dining" establishment. Unless your baby is sound asleep throughout, "quiet" does not describe the experience of all other patrons. "Cute" (to you) baby noises, or, worse, parents yammering to the baby throughout the meal is a dismal experience to those around you attending, in hopes of their own "fine dining" experience.

Now that you are a FAMILY, it's best that you endeavor to visit "family" dining destinations.

In my experience, Indian and Chinese restaurants work out nicely with small children. YMMV.

Hi TG,

I seem to have missed your, I am sure, excellent reply.

Although Chanel 4 is nice, I prefer Chanel No 5.

I live in Edinburgh and have an 18 month old daughter. Although I wouldn't recommend some of the more expensive restaurants as suitable - the Witchery probably falls into this category - there are plenty of other alternatives. I think that the warnings posted above are good, though, in that you need not only to be aware of what suits you but also what suits others in the restaurant.

I have a book at home which lists some of the places in Edinburgh which are "family friendly" (and they do venture away from TGI Fridays and McDonalds!) I'll take a look when I get in and will post again either tonight or tomorrow with some details.

You are quite right, sir, I am a dubious speller. But, even at Harrow I only took a Third. It isn't easy when the bloke sitting next to you is a viscount and you are the son of a chimneysweep from Wapping.

Who could possibly object to Chanel?

I think I know what kind of restaurant you are looking for - the "noisy, busy" type of place to cover up any baby noise, but it serves well-prepared, "gourmet" meals. Your "research" for good restaurants will have to be different than you did in the past. For example, I just picked up "England for Dummies" and "Italy for Dummies." Although these publications aren't too sophisticated, I found that they have great "kid-friendly" suggestions, including restaurants. I also agree with the other posters - you will have to ask around, and be prepared to order room service or "picnic" if nothing appropriate is available. Traveling with kids can be done, but it takes much more planning and flexibility.

What a bunch of stuffed shirts on this board!!!

Last year, I had lunch at Steiereck in Vienna - arguably the most famous restaurant in Austria, Michelin one-star etc. We brought along our 5 year-old daughter.

There were 3 other children dining that day, including a 2 month old. The staff could not have been more child friendly. And the food was as good as I've eaten anywhere. I even had a cigar (my first in about two years) - their selection is extraordinary. And before anyone gets all over me re: secondhand smoke, remember this. Most of our parents smoked around us and we don't seem to be dropping dead.

Avoid most "fancy" restaurants, esp. for dinner. Lunch is almost always more casual and accomodating. Personally, I prefer the casual bistro/trattoria type restaurants anyway.

Also, call and ask if it's OK for kids. Any restaurant that hesitates isn't one you'd feel comfortable in anyway.

This thread actually reminds me of why I can't stand "fine dining" - it's like eating in a morgue or museum.

Coachboy

No such thing as the guarentee of a "quiet" baby at dinner. Out of respect for the others who may be spending the most money on a meal ever on their special vacation don't do it. Have a fine dinning meal delivered to your hotel room, or get a sitter from an agency and go out to dinner.

I think what set most folks off was the "fine dining" bit. To most people fine dining means posh, special, ambience, etc. An infant has no business in a "Fine Dining" establishment. But I actually think you are just looking for good food in a nice setting.

there are TONS of places all over the UK that will give you a good meal and welcome children too.

The zagats guide for London lists over 200 restaurants (real restaurants, not fast food places) that are good for kids.

Each has detailed ratings of cost, food, setting, service, etc.

You will find a lot of places all over Scotland that embrace kids.

How timely given the Sex and the City episode last night addressing the same topic. Personnally, if your child is well behaved, no problem. The minute the child starts screaming or misbehaving, if you take the child out of the restaurant, no one should mind. We were at a family friendly restaurant last week where a 3 year old threw a temper tanturm, yelling crying, running around and the parents did nothing. It ruined our dinner and those around us-for them I have 2 words-baby sitter.

At the risk of stating the obvious and as touched upon by several other posters...

I'd wait until you are in a location and ask at the hotel front desk, your room maid, a taxi driver, shop keepers, etc. for their suggestions - as to where you might find the best meal where an infant would be welcomed too.

That's going to be much more accurate and timely than any books or general posted responses here.

Add my vote to the "don't take the baby" bunch.

Hire a sitter; don't impose your beloved bundle on others.

OK, as promised, here are a few suggestions. These come from a book called "Edinburgh for Under Fives" which is very useful for those of us with kids in that age range!

Howie's is a restaurant which features a number of times. They have branches across Edinburgh - the nearest to the centre is probably in Stockbridge, but there's also one in Bruntsfield too. These are generally pretty good - if you do a search on here you will find a number of recommendations. Website - www.howies.uk.com

Chisholms Restaurant at the Caledonian Hotel (Hilton) also welcomes children.

Two on the Grassmarket - Gennaro's and Mamma's. I'd not really describe them as "fine dining" but the food seems to be pretty good and the restaurants are friendly. Both are on the small side, though, so if baby is in a buggy (stroller) then it could be difficult.

A bit further out, the Cramond Brig pub is excellent for Sunday lunch and welcomes children. Pizza Express is across Edinburgh, and also welcomes children (although again, it's not fine dining.)

These are just the ones that advertise the fact that kids are welcome. Others might be OK - just phone and ask.

Premal, like yourselves we have a young child (now 18mnths), love eating out and great food. We live in the UK (just north of London) and occasionally eat out at top places. Frequently we take the little one with us, although usually for lunch or early evening first sitting.

In the restaurants we've been to i've generally not noticed smoking, the exception being Gordon Ramsey Restaurant (London) which was a little smokey.

My recommendations.....

Gordon Ramsey, London, French, 'CHILDREN WELCOME' 3 michelin stars

John Burton Race at the Landmark Hotel, London, French, www.landmarklondon.co.uk 'CHILDREN WELCOME' 2 michelin stars

Nobu, London, Japanese /South American, good for star spotting, 'CHILDREN WELCOME' 1 michelin star

Mandarin Oriental Hyde Park, London, 'CHILDREN WELCOME'

Nahm, Halkin Hotel, London, Thai, 'CHILDREN WELCOME' www.halkin.co.uk 1 michelin star 'best Thai restaurant in London'?

Le Manoir aux Quat' Saisons - Near Oxford & Cotswolds, French, www.blanc.co.uk 2 michelin stars 'CHILDREN WELCOME'

947AD at the Royalist, Cotswolds, the 'oldest inn' in the UK, www.theroyalisthotel.co.uk, 'CHILDREN WELCOME'

Sorry I can't personally recommend any restaurants in the Lake District or Edinburgh. The Drunken Duck Inn, Ambleside, Cumbria, sounds interesting though. www.drunkenduckinn.co.uk and of course 'CHILDREN WELCOME'

Some of these restaurants, particularly those in London, will need to be booked well in advance.

Hope all 3 of you enjoy yourselves!