Favorite European church architecture?
Jun 27th, 2005, 03:48 PM
#21
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
smalti, I wish we had more of these "idle questions" on Fodors. The responses have been wonderful.
So, for those who might some day find themselves in Auvergne, the five Romanesque churches are all within a 25-mile radius of Clermont-Ferrand: the Basilique Notre-Dame-du-Port in Clermont-Ferrand itself, plus the unmistakeable churches of St-Nectaire, Oricival, Issoirre, and St-Saturnin.
Viewed from the outside, the most distinguishing feature is a two-story octagonal bell-tower sitting on an oblong box or haunch over the crossing. Beneath this structure, there is a gentle fall of tiered rounded roofs over the chevet. It is a beautiful, simple design.
The five were all started between 1080 and 1150. From all of the books I have read, there is no apparent reason for their similarity, and I understand that there are no other churches known to be designed in exactly the same way.
All of this reminds me that I must get back to my trip report ... the Auvergne is not well known in North America, and it is a beautiful region. When I finish typing the summary, I'll post it with a link to some pictures. In the meantime, here's a photo of the church in Issoire. It shows the oblong block surmounted by the octagonal bell tower and the cascading roofs; the other four look a lot like this one: www.art-roman.net/issoire/issoire.htm
Anselm
So, for those who might some day find themselves in Auvergne, the five Romanesque churches are all within a 25-mile radius of Clermont-Ferrand: the Basilique Notre-Dame-du-Port in Clermont-Ferrand itself, plus the unmistakeable churches of St-Nectaire, Oricival, Issoirre, and St-Saturnin.
Viewed from the outside, the most distinguishing feature is a two-story octagonal bell-tower sitting on an oblong box or haunch over the crossing. Beneath this structure, there is a gentle fall of tiered rounded roofs over the chevet. It is a beautiful, simple design.
The five were all started between 1080 and 1150. From all of the books I have read, there is no apparent reason for their similarity, and I understand that there are no other churches known to be designed in exactly the same way.
All of this reminds me that I must get back to my trip report ... the Auvergne is not well known in North America, and it is a beautiful region. When I finish typing the summary, I'll post it with a link to some pictures. In the meantime, here's a photo of the church in Issoire. It shows the oblong block surmounted by the octagonal bell tower and the cascading roofs; the other four look a lot like this one: www.art-roman.net/issoire/issoire.htm
Anselm
Jun 27th, 2005, 04:12 PM
#22
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,790
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Italian Renaissance hands down. This style preference drove the selection of Italy for my first eurpean trip as an adult. I also enjoy the painting and sculpture of the period. IMO Heaven must closely resemble Firenze....
A far second is Byzantine (ohhh Venice), closely followed by Gothic. This style gets particularilly interesting with moorish influences as can be seen in southern Spain. Baroque is way down on the list.
I would still make a detour to go visit any remarkable building regardless of the period. I love good architecture in all styles.
A far second is Byzantine (ohhh Venice), closely followed by Gothic. This style gets particularilly interesting with moorish influences as can be seen in southern Spain. Baroque is way down on the list.
I would still make a detour to go visit any remarkable building regardless of the period. I love good architecture in all styles.
Jun 27th, 2005, 04:22 PM
#23
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,925
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AnselmAdorne, yes yes yes, the Auvergne is spectacular. Romanesque is my fave. Notre Dame du Port is beautiful. Thought I was the only person who has been there. I'm hoping to catch some more Romanesque in Sicily in the autumn.
Jun 27th, 2005, 05:19 PM
#24
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Manuelino" is a unique Portuguese style. It's named after King Manuel I which was a patron of artists in the final years of s. XV and early XVI.
It looks a bit like baroque but it is not. It's like gothic but more ornated.
It looks a bit like baroque but it is not. It's like gothic but more ornated.
Jun 27th, 2005, 06:02 PM
#25
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kenderina: Is Manueline the name describing the nautical influences in the ornamentation? Sealife, shells, rope and netting, etc. I was completely enamoured by this unique style in Portugal, and I believe in southern Spain as well.
Until now I haven't entertained this question, but the more I think about it, as much time as I spend in churches in somewhat of a mesmerized state and linger as long as possible because I know I'll never remember all the magnificence inside those walls, I think the ones most dear to my heart are the small simple ones in the country side. Several come to mind...the little white wooden one in Australia with the view past the altar of the waters of the Great Barrier Reef; the dark wooden stave church in Norway with the glacier in the distance; one outside of Munich on a small hillside that was very simple baroque? with frescoes on the white plaster.
I guess as much as I appreciate the history and art in the 'great' churches and cathedrals, the small ones have left the most dramatic impression on me.
Until now I haven't entertained this question, but the more I think about it, as much time as I spend in churches in somewhat of a mesmerized state and linger as long as possible because I know I'll never remember all the magnificence inside those walls, I think the ones most dear to my heart are the small simple ones in the country side. Several come to mind...the little white wooden one in Australia with the view past the altar of the waters of the Great Barrier Reef; the dark wooden stave church in Norway with the glacier in the distance; one outside of Munich on a small hillside that was very simple baroque? with frescoes on the white plaster.
I guess as much as I appreciate the history and art in the 'great' churches and cathedrals, the small ones have left the most dramatic impression on me.
Jun 27th, 2005, 06:06 PM
#26
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
nancyz, no, the name stands for the king Manuel I of Portugal. But the period he reigned was the one of the big maritime portuguese expansion and yes, the motives are mostly nautic.
In Southern Spain it doesn't exist. Of course there is nautical ornamentation but it has nothing to do with the manueline style.
In Southern Spain it doesn't exist. Of course there is nautical ornamentation but it has nothing to do with the manueline style.
Jun 27th, 2005, 06:15 PM
#27
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,562
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm glad there's a place to discuss this topic, and glad there are those of us who enjoy it.
Anselm, I look forward to your trip report and to your pictures. They should be very interesting!
StCirq, I share your paring-down philosophy with regard to my own possessions (and am less acquisitive in middle age than I was in youth), but I don't find the same quality in my taste in churches. I'm still very fond of ornamentation; like Eloise, it's this combined with larger-scale architectural elements that I find appealing.
Also, the art and decorations that aren't part of the building itself greatly enhance the experience for me. There I'm on the same page as you, marigross, in that I can't think of churches that contain better freestanding art than Italian Renaissance ones.
Anselm, I look forward to your trip report and to your pictures. They should be very interesting!
StCirq, I share your paring-down philosophy with regard to my own possessions (and am less acquisitive in middle age than I was in youth), but I don't find the same quality in my taste in churches. I'm still very fond of ornamentation; like Eloise, it's this combined with larger-scale architectural elements that I find appealing.
Also, the art and decorations that aren't part of the building itself greatly enhance the experience for me. There I'm on the same page as you, marigross, in that I can't think of churches that contain better freestanding art than Italian Renaissance ones.
Jun 27th, 2005, 06:38 PM
#28
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,562
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And I take your point, TuckH: It does seem that no sooner would some styles develop distinctly and break off from what preceded them, than either some exaggerations of the style's features would become endemic, or the style would begin to "morph" into the next one.
Jun 28th, 2005, 04:35 AM
#29
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,077
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess if it is a top example of any style it is a special building. Personally I don't find baroque does anything for me. The best thing about St Peters is the Pieta.
Notre Dame, Toledo Cathedral, York Minster, are all special.
But most special of all is Durham cathedral.
Notre Dame, Toledo Cathedral, York Minster, are all special.
But most special of all is Durham cathedral.
Jun 28th, 2005, 04:56 AM
#30
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,037
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While not a particular devotee of any specific type of church architecture, I tend to like those that have some feature that is unique and thus more memorable to me. One of my favorites is the cute, homey, almost smiley little church in Honfleur that has two upside down hulls of ships for naves since the place was built by shipbuilders. Others that stand out in my memory are the Sagrada Familia in Barcelona, the romanesque cathedral in Vezelay, the Byzantine Hagia sophia, the church that is both a mosque and a cathedral in Cordoba, the cloisters of so many churches in Portugal--they do cloisters best, the heavily mosaiced cathedral on the hill in Lyon. I also tend to like Greek and Russian Orthodox churches like the one in Karlovy Vary and another in Trieste. I do go out of my way to see and even plan as destinations architectural treats in the Art Nouveau style but I have been stymied in my efforts to see the Kirche am Steinhof outside Vienna. It's always closed for repairs--sort of like the Orangerie.
Jun 28th, 2005, 03:07 PM
#32
This is really a great topic and of the sort that we ought to conserve into a "best of Fodors" library.
For myself, I'm fascinated not only by the architectural style of the buildings but their contexts. York Minster - in the middle of a medieval city, visible from outside town, but largely obscured by overhangs and other buildings in town until you turn the corner and...
As opposed to Durham - on a hilltop, dark and massive, its singular message (to me) was always intended to be "submit."
Or Seville with its arrogant gold-in-gold chapels. My wife whispered to me as we looked upon the riches before us, "If I was an Inca I'd be really p*ssed."
They're all great - the brick bastion of Albi, so different inside than out; the harlequin arches of Cordoba; the thousands of crutches and canes and centuries of debris left for the Black Madonna of Czestochowa; the sheer wealth attested by the Duomo; the fantasy of St Basil's...
But then last month we visited the Ayasofia and the baseline was reset.
For myself, I'm fascinated not only by the architectural style of the buildings but their contexts. York Minster - in the middle of a medieval city, visible from outside town, but largely obscured by overhangs and other buildings in town until you turn the corner and...
As opposed to Durham - on a hilltop, dark and massive, its singular message (to me) was always intended to be "submit."
Or Seville with its arrogant gold-in-gold chapels. My wife whispered to me as we looked upon the riches before us, "If I was an Inca I'd be really p*ssed."
They're all great - the brick bastion of Albi, so different inside than out; the harlequin arches of Cordoba; the thousands of crutches and canes and centuries of debris left for the Black Madonna of Czestochowa; the sheer wealth attested by the Duomo; the fantasy of St Basil's...
But then last month we visited the Ayasofia and the baseline was reset.
Jun 28th, 2005, 03:18 PM
#33
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,099
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm from the "I know what I like" school of Architecture appreciation...I couldn't tell the difference between Romanesque and Gothic, except that I know Ste. Chappelle is Gothic.
Personally, I liked St. Peter's for WOW factor. Mystery solved in my mind as to where all that Catholic money goes.
I also liked Westminster Abbey and St. Paul's. I don't much care for Byzantine art, and couldn't have been less impressed by the Aya Sofia as a result. I find it flat and boring, and too much gold.
I'd sure appreciate a translation as to my favorite style, please. And keep it clean, boys and girls.
Jules
Personally, I liked St. Peter's for WOW factor. Mystery solved in my mind as to where all that Catholic money goes.
I also liked Westminster Abbey and St. Paul's. I don't much care for Byzantine art, and couldn't have been less impressed by the Aya Sofia as a result. I find it flat and boring, and too much gold.
I'd sure appreciate a translation as to my favorite style, please. And keep it clean, boys and girls.
Jules
Jun 29th, 2005, 08:47 AM
#34
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,562
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jules--Maybe you should declare, rather loftily, that your taste in ecclesiastical architecture is 'eclectic'...and try arching one eyebrow as you say it!
Gardyloo--I envy you (and Julie V.) so much for visiting the Ayasofia (or Hagia Sophia). I've wanted to years to see it, and don't know whether that will ever happen.
Last year I got a sort of consolation prize by visiting a Greek monastery called Osias Loukas. The sight of the light in the tiny katholikon, streaming in the angled windows and glinting off the mosaics was so majestic that I could have wept. I believe the Hagia Sophia would offer that sort of splendor writ large.
Gardyloo--I envy you (and Julie V.) so much for visiting the Ayasofia (or Hagia Sophia). I've wanted to years to see it, and don't know whether that will ever happen.
Last year I got a sort of consolation prize by visiting a Greek monastery called Osias Loukas. The sight of the light in the tiny katholikon, streaming in the angled windows and glinting off the mosaics was so majestic that I could have wept. I believe the Hagia Sophia would offer that sort of splendor writ large.
Jun 29th, 2005, 08:56 AM
#35
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,862
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jules, I couldn't distinguish between Romanesque and Gothic a few weeks ago either, but this is what I learned:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O19C2695B
Hope the ramblings are useful to you.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O19C2695B
Hope the ramblings are useful to you.
Jun 29th, 2005, 08:16 PM
#37
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,019
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is very interesting as we just returned from Germany and Austria. Until we retired a year ago, most of our travel was in France and we love the Gothic and Romanesque churches. Last year we visited Rome and later spent six weeks in Italy. We found we were quite relieved to return to France at the end of the trip because everything in Italy seemed "overdone" to us.
Germany and Austria were the same. You walk in and you say "Wow!" but at the same time it is overwhelming. Places like Wieskirche and Ottobeuren were amazing but it looked like every possible surface was painted or decorated in some way or other. It was just too much.
We talked about it a great deal and we both felt the spirituality of the place was somehow lost in all the ornamentation. This, of course, is personal opinion.
I must admit visiting Ronchamp was a lifelong dream for me. I had seen it in Time Magazine when I was a child and in 2002 we made our pilgrimage. We both loved it. It is also very spare albeit very modern.
I think I'm with St. Cirq. I like the spareness. I asked my uncle once why he loved the desert (I do too.) and he said, "Because it is so sere." That kind of says it all.
Germany and Austria were the same. You walk in and you say "Wow!" but at the same time it is overwhelming. Places like Wieskirche and Ottobeuren were amazing but it looked like every possible surface was painted or decorated in some way or other. It was just too much.
We talked about it a great deal and we both felt the spirituality of the place was somehow lost in all the ornamentation. This, of course, is personal opinion.
I must admit visiting Ronchamp was a lifelong dream for me. I had seen it in Time Magazine when I was a child and in 2002 we made our pilgrimage. We both loved it. It is also very spare albeit very modern.
I think I'm with St. Cirq. I like the spareness. I asked my uncle once why he loved the desert (I do too.) and he said, "Because it is so sere." That kind of says it all.
Jun 30th, 2005, 02:10 AM
#38
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To Kenderina, Nancyz, Smalti and Ke1th:
This particular window in Tomar Christ Convent is known as the ex-libris of Manuelino style. The phono is not of very good quality but gives an ideia of it.
http://tomar.com.sapo.pt/janela.html
This particular window in Tomar Christ Convent is known as the ex-libris of Manuelino style. The phono is not of very good quality but gives an ideia of it.
http://tomar.com.sapo.pt/janela.html
Jun 30th, 2005, 04:28 AM
#40
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<i>"... we both felt the spirituality of the place was somehow lost in all the ornamentation ..."</i>
SalB, that sums it up perfectly, at least as far as I am concerned. While I find Gothic architecture intellectually stimulating (How did they figure out how to channel thrust the way they did? How could they make walls that thin?), I do not feel the sense of peace, comfort, and tranquility that comes with Romanesque architecture in general and Cistercian in particular.
Heady stuff from a non-believer, I suppose, but those Cistercian churches move me deeply.
Anselm
SalB, that sums it up perfectly, at least as far as I am concerned. While I find Gothic architecture intellectually stimulating (How did they figure out how to channel thrust the way they did? How could they make walls that thin?), I do not feel the sense of peace, comfort, and tranquility that comes with Romanesque architecture in general and Cistercian in particular.
Heady stuff from a non-believer, I suppose, but those Cistercian churches move me deeply.
Anselm
