Grandma

I'm sorry your husband didn't enjoy my hometown.(Manhattan) As a transplant I've always said... NYC is a great place to live but I wouldn't want to visit. -

It's easy to drive from the French riviera to Italy. You might want to loop thru the lakes and end in Venice.
Perhaps stopping in places like Verona ( oops.. maybe too much of a town) or Sirmione. It's easy to drop a car in Venice. As others have pointed out May will probably not be beach time. If you chose Venice I wouldn't recommend staying on the Lido. At nite, after all the day trippers leave you have Venice pretty much to yourself. If the weather is good, break the bank and have a drink in the Piazza San Marco late in the evening with all the orchestras playing. I doubt you'll forget it.

travelgourmet

"there's nothing "college student" about taking an overnight train if you spring for a private 2-person cabin in a train with a dining car (or take your own decent food). in some situations it is much more relaxing than getting to and from 2 different airports & a flight."

I guess, but Paris to Venice, for example is around 1,100 km. For comparison's sake, when was the last time someone suggested people should take the train from New York to Chicago? Marseilles to Venice is 800 km. That is a long distance to cover on a train, no matter how much food you take. And a private cabin will be more expensive than plane tickets and journey's to and from the airport.

There is a reason that Europe has seen an explosion of low-cost airlines - carriers that make even the worst US carrier look luxurious. It is because traveling long distances by train, even in Europe, is not all that we romanticize it to be.

greg

Based on what was mentioned, it looks like your husband does not like NYC.

From this observation, one infers that he does not like U.S. major cities.

One needs to make another inference that because he does not like NYC, he would not like European major cities. It is possible that this inference is correct.

In my case, while I don't care for most major U.S. cities, I like European cities. Unlike U.S. cities where one business can take up a whole city block, in old European cities, such as the ones mentioned, I can visit many places without having to walk hardly at all.

ira

Hi TG,

>when was the last time someone suggested people should take the train from New York to Chicago?<

We took the train from DC to Chicago. From there we took the Southern route via Denver to Seattle.

Our return was via the Northern route back to Chicago, and then the route via the New River Gorge back to DC.

Perhaps the best tour of the US that we have ever taken.

Caveat: This being Amtrak and not SNCF, BahnDe or Trenitalia, our train arrived in Seattle 13 hr late. We got back to DC only 11 hr late.

travelgourmet

Ira,

I assume that the train journey was itself a large part of the vacation? Our OP has 13 days, and has not expressed an urge to travel on the train for the sake of traveling on the train, so I just fail to see how spending 12+ hours on a train from Nice to Venice is really a good choice, when they could fly (even with a connection) in less than half that time. If you are a train nut, then great, but our OP's husband hates crowds and was intimidated by the subway, so a train is all of a sudden a great idea?

Since train travel will take longer and possibly cost more money than flying, I just don't understand how anyone can recommend it as a reasonable option for getting between some pretty far-flung destinations. And this isn't a referendum on train travel, just an honest attempt to make the OP aware of the time, effort, and money that their plan will involve.

Now, if the OP had said that they wanted to go from Nice to Venice, hitting Milan along the way, then a train makes sense, but strictly as a means of transportation any efficiency gains from the train are, IMHO, lost for a trip of over 4 hours or so (or more than a single connection) and one should be realistic and just fly.

bilboburgler

No you miss the point. On an aircraft you squat together and and best get to meet two other people. On a train you can meet as many as you want. Its like being on holiday and you are moving

Carolina

From Venice you could take a ferry to Croatia. Another option, would be to take the ferry to Corfu, or possibly Paxos. Agni Taverna (north Corfu) has an excellent travel website which may be of interest to you. I think the train from Nice sounds good.
The open jaw ticket is a good idea.
Finally, if you choose Croatia, Dubrovnik is a lovely city for wandering round and for visiting beaches.

Vttraveler

I would probably skip the Croatian beaches and take more time in Provence/Cote d'Azur before Venice or explore the more rural options in Italy suggested by others.

As for the train vs plane question, I would have opted for the train as a college student and I would personally still choose it. European trains from center city to center city are a lot more relaxing to me than dealing with multiple airports and airport to city transfers. I think you'd see some nice scenery on the way from Nice to Venice, too, although I have never taken that route.

WTnow

I am sorry, but big cities are big cities....full of crowds, pollution, traffic & congestion. I do not see a big difference in NYC than Paris, Rome, London, Barcelona, Istanbul, Vienna, Madrid,Athens, Amsterdam, Berlin, Moscow etc....they all overwhelm. If you do not speak the language or know the metro/transportation system that adds to the challenge.

I can take them in small doses or even a few weeks if I stay in a rural feeling area nearby ( we travel with kids and this makes it much easier & more fun for her). Even if you stay right in the center of the city there is much more walking than most Americans are use to in order to see the key sites.

But if you do not like cities in the U.S.. you are probably not going to like them in Europe. There is a LOT more walking in Europe.

The exceptions ( and there is still a lot of walking) would be Dubrovnik, Seville,Brugge etc that have old towns and a more small town feel. Venice has more of a small town feel than Rome, but it is a cruise ship port so always some crowds & lots of walking. Most of the people who work in Venice do not live there, so it is an easy commute by boat kind of place with gorgeous sandy beaches with few people on them.

Here is a pic of the beach were we stayed near Venice which we found a very nice combo to combine with our time touring Venice ( to give you an idea of what it looks like & if it would appeal to him):

http://www.soultravelers3.com/blog/6...D2FFFD0CF.html

When I was young I loved big cities and lived in them like NYC and SF etc., but as I get older, I really do not like them at all. Not in the U.S , not in Europe or anywhere. That said, sometimes they are important to see.


Also Becca, if his feet hurt from the walking in NYC, start a daily walking program BEFORE going to Europe and make sure you have good socks and comfortable, supportive shoes. It is hard to really see Europe with out lots of walking. If you have the stamina to walk far away from the crowds in Europe, you will enjoy Venice more and get a greater idea of the real Venice.

There actually IS beach weather in Europe in May in places like Marbella or Nerja in southern Spain. ( Heck I could sun today here...southern Spain... in a bathing suit). So if you are looking for beautiful beaches and lazing in the sun type travel....head to southern Spain or Portugal.

But it sounds like you want Venice & Nice are the most.


Trains in Europe can be great...but timing is everything and you do not have much of that. I would pick one or two places enjoy slow travel & get a GPS if you drive. Enjoy! Both your needs should be able to be met.

Christina

There is some attitude (and the OP has one herself) that this man is deficient in not liking big cities, must be basically stupid and childish, and this isn't a valid opinion, but a "preconceived notion". Which sounds like an opinion, to me. I like big cities myself and would have some conflicts if I were married to someone who did not want to travel there, but I don't think this is an unreasonable position. I do know people myself who don't like big cities very much.

It does not take 12+ hours to get by train from Nice to Venice, it takes about 8-9 hours. YOu can do it with one transfer in Milan. Flying is just not easy any more, and really never has been, with the time you must spend getting there in advance, when you arrive, perhaps getting to/from the airport, etc. In the US, I don't always fly when I have a day's car travel because you really don't save much or any time, there are possibly lots more problems, and it is not as relaxing as driving or taking the train. The train is really relaxing, you can view the countryside, it is much more comfortable than a flight, etc. And there are many fewer problems with luggage, delays, etc. I just drove 8 hours each way for Christmas vacation rather than flying because I hate flying so much and it is much less risky. One time I decided to fly instead, the flight was delayed several hours, and then they cancelled it and said the next one would be six hours later. I could have driven in shorter time.

I would not want to bet that taking a one-way flight from Nice to Venice (transferring would be required) would be cheaper than the train. The cheapest price I saw on www.opodo.fr was around 200 euro for a one-way ticket and took about 5-6 hours due to changes. I did see one budget airline from Marseille to Venice, but you'd have to get there. IF you buy a RT ticket, the cheapest fare I saw was around 225 euro (on Alitalia or AF through Rome) and took a bit over 3 hours for the flying time. By contrast, the advance purchase train fare from Nice to Venice is only around 50 euro on SNCF. Regular 2nd class fare is only 84 euro.

Becca

Thank you so much for all of your responses. In case anyone is wondering about my husband (as it sounds like some of you may be), he grew up on a farm in rural middle Tennessee. Don't let that fool you - he is one of the smartest people I know and is an attorney (I know - that's debatable on whether that's a good thing or not!). He just wasn't exposed to a lot of new experiences growing up. Other than a trip to Hawaii and a couple of trips out west, his family really did not travel.

When we met in our early 20s (we are now in our early 30s) and I would talk about how much I wanted to travel, he quickly informed me that "everything he ever wanted to see could be found in the United States." I, of course, was horrified at his limited views and eased him out of his comfort zone with a honeymoon to St. John - Caribbean yet still U.S.

Once he realized how much he loved St. John, we ventured to Anguilla, Antigua, St. Barts, Jamaica, Aruba, Vieques, Culebra, Dominican Republic, Virgin Gorda, Jost Van Dyke, and on and on and on. He now talks about visiting places like the South Pacific and Costa Rica and South America. To say that he has grown as a traveler would be a gross understatement. Even though he doesn't care for big cities, I want to continue urging him on to get out of his comfort zone and find other areas of the world that he loves just as much as the U.S. and Caribbean.

charnees

Becca, I agree: rural Tuscany should be the place for you. And in May you will not find a lot of warm beaches in Italy. I would skip Rome, unfortunately, because it really is a big frantic city.

But Tuscany!! Ah!!

charnees

Oh, and Lucca is a nice, middlesized town enclosed in ancient walls that are very wide and have been converted into a circular park.

You can walk to get to stores and restaurants without being mowed down by traffic. If you had an apartment there, or near there, and a car, you could do some touring, not just to the tourist towns like Pisa, San Gimignano or Siena, but also up into the mountains above Lucca or along the coast to Carrara where you can see the marble quarries. Pick up your car at the Florence airport and you're very close to the autostrada (freeway) to Lucca.

kasnije

You can go from Nice to Venice to Croatia. Pretty easily!

Take a night train from Nice to Venice (3 pax sleeping car is comfortable)

Stay in Venice and then take an afternoon bus to Pula in Istria.

Know that Istria has few sandy beaches--although the locals in Pula know about some (you'll need a car).

For travel arrangements in Croatia, I found this website--www.croatiatraveller.com--pretty helpful. It's written by the lady who writes the Lonely Planet guidebook.

flanneruk

Why on earth are you planning to go to Italy at all?

Your husband's "feet hurt from all the walking, he was intimidated by the crowds and the subway, he doesn't care for museums or shopping"

Apart from the subway, every syllable of that applies to Venice. And Florence. And Rome. But the crowds (especially in May, when practically all of Europe's got a holiday every week) are worse: at least in New York most of the crowd knows where it's going.

I'm no expert on beaches, but I'd doubt anywhere along the northern shores ofthe Med is going to give you a West Indian-style beach holiday in May.

In your shoes, I'd forget about Croatia and Italy altogether. Even second level cities in Italy, like Siena or Padua, are crowded and can take forever to drive into, find a parking space and drive out of. And when you're there, you'll be tempted to spend time in endless bleeding museums: I once stupidly took a god-daughter round the seventeen million identical Sienese Madonnas in the local pinacoteca and the poor girl's been off posh art ever since.

If what you both like is underplanned driving, just drive round secondary France for two weeks. Unlike Italy, most of its towns (outside the Riviera, which I'd avoid, but...) are half-empty. Meander into one, find parking near-instantly, potter about, have lunch, potter a bit more then off to the next gite or whatever. Maybe, if you're in the far south-east, drive over to Italy for a day to see. But avoid almost anywhere you've ever heard of. Your husband will probably LOATHE Avignon, for example

When it comes to city-phobia, size really doesn't matter, and a town can often look really small on a map, but when you turn up you find it's still full of crowds and the only thing to see is yet another poxy museum. In France, that's fine: you just turn round and drive on, because there's always somewhere cuddlier and emptier fifteen miles away. Get the Green Michelin to a couple of regions and just adlib.

GSteed

The TV announced that few Americans have passports. I infer that those people are not interested enough in Europe or whereever to spend time and money visiting churches and museums. You note that your husband is an attorney. Why not work out visits to European law firms and courts...? Does his company have an EU branch? How about trying some law schools? Thousands of Americans are living and working in Europe. I doubt that any of them have been in a church or museum except when guests arrive. They all have found different ways to experience Europe. Sports? Try a weeklong golf school.

Images2

We loved Croatia when we were there in June last year. We took a 3 hour bus between Venice and Rovinj, which is lovely town. Pula would be easier for car rental though. We drove to Plitivice Lakes National Park, staying at the Knezevic Guest House for 35€ per night, per room + 5€ each for breakfast. The B&B's here are much better than the hotels. It's a remarkable park, 100's of waterfalls, connected by wooden walking platforms, which I think would be wonderful in the spring.

From here you can drive the fantastic new road to Split. There are no crowds. See Split for 2 hours, then get the ferry over to Hvar. You'll need to get the ferry schedule since they only make the trip a couple times of day.

Hvar is so peaceful and beautiful. For "beaches" take the small boats which connect Hvar to the small outlaying islands. They run back and forth several times a day. The beaches are huge slabs of rock, no sand, but the water is crystal clear and very casual atmosphere. You can also do some hiking through the pines.

Return to Split and take a public bus down to Dubrovnik. You can spend several days here, seeing Dubrovnik and taking a day trip to Montenegro.

You'll see very few crowds on this trip in May or early June, and have incredible beauty.

gruezi

Becca,

Sounds like your husband likes beaches and water... Have you considered Greece? Perhaps the Amalfi coast of Italy with Capri thrown in? These might be nice intros to Europe that he can expand from. I agree Venice, Florence, and Rome and even Nice will probably not be his cup of tea...

g.

NanBug

Listen to Flanner, Becca.

He's spot on, I think.

jenblase

Becca - My husband sounds very similar to yours (search under my name and you'll see some similar posts from last year!).

My husband absolutely LOVED Provence - he found it relaxing and peaceful and yet there was still so much to do. This was after a week in Paris which he found utterly stressful and chaotic (while I, on the other hand, loved Paris and can't wait to go back!)

Email me if you want to chat more!
~Jennifer