European healthcare
Aug 11th, 2007, 12:22 PM
#101
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It is unlikely that the US will have universal healthcare (or even universally available healthcare) in the foreseeable future because something like 80% of Americans are satisfied with their existing coverage. Politicians and economists have repeatedly concluded that this is the greatest impediment to change.
Presumably, this number does not include those that are uninsured by choice. I would like to see statistics for those that are uncovered because coverage is truly out of their grasp, rather than numbers that are inflated by those (mostly young adults) that simply choose not to buy health coverage.
Speaking of choice - No one chooses to be poor, but many poor people make choices or take chances that insure they will become poor and remain poor ("I don't need a high school diploma", "She won't get pregnant", etc.).
Presumably, this number does not include those that are uninsured by choice. I would like to see statistics for those that are uncovered because coverage is truly out of their grasp, rather than numbers that are inflated by those (mostly young adults) that simply choose not to buy health coverage.
Speaking of choice - No one chooses to be poor, but many poor people make choices or take chances that insure they will become poor and remain poor ("I don't need a high school diploma", "She won't get pregnant", etc.).
Aug 11th, 2007, 12:33 PM
#102
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'It is unlikely that the US will have universal healthcare (or even universally available healthcare) in the foreseeable future because something like 80% of Americans are satisfied with their existing coverage. Politicians and economists have repeatedly concluded that this is the greatest impediment to change."
You have hit the nail on the head!
You have hit the nail on the head!
Aug 11th, 2007, 12:35 PM
#103
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tomboy wrote: "I thought my examples were clear enough, unless filtered thru vision that precludes clarity."
tomboy, if you want to argue with me, it is better if you do not presume that I am stupid.
The fact that some people are profligate does not mean that poverty does not exist, and the fact that some people fail to see and grasp opportunities does not mean that they deserve to be poor -- life is more complicated than that.
You make no mention of the welfare of the children of those who are profligate or who have not managed to climb out of poverty. And your acknowledgement that "there are some unfortunate people with legitimate needs" is washed over by what you have to say about others of whose choices and actions you disapprove.
I do not say that all Americans blame the poor for the state they are in. I know that is not the case. What I say is that such a view seems to have more adherents in America than in Europe. It is a concomitant of the work ethic that in so many ways serves the American economy well.
tomboy, if you want to argue with me, it is better if you do not presume that I am stupid.
The fact that some people are profligate does not mean that poverty does not exist, and the fact that some people fail to see and grasp opportunities does not mean that they deserve to be poor -- life is more complicated than that.
You make no mention of the welfare of the children of those who are profligate or who have not managed to climb out of poverty. And your acknowledgement that "there are some unfortunate people with legitimate needs" is washed over by what you have to say about others of whose choices and actions you disapprove.
I do not say that all Americans blame the poor for the state they are in. I know that is not the case. What I say is that such a view seems to have more adherents in America than in Europe. It is a concomitant of the work ethic that in so many ways serves the American economy well.
Aug 11th, 2007, 12:49 PM
#104
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Read this article carefully...not everyone without health benefits is deliberately ignoring advice or buying lattes with the money that could buy insurance.
Children born with certain problems that could live and function with treatment are using up the 1 million dollar limit before they are 3!
The majority of the uncovered are working poor and people earning around $40,00.00 a year. God forbid you have HBP , or thyroid, or diabetes and need to buy your own coverage. !
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/...red-usat_N.htm
Children born with certain problems that could live and function with treatment are using up the 1 million dollar limit before they are 3!
The majority of the uncovered are working poor and people earning around $40,00.00 a year. God forbid you have HBP , or thyroid, or diabetes and need to buy your own coverage. !
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/...red-usat_N.htm
Aug 12th, 2007, 02:23 AM
#106
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Aug 12th, 2007, 04:24 AM
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Just as an adjunct to thoughts about healthcare in the States, I saw an item on the news today that a child born in the USA in 2004 had a life expectancy of 77.4 years - down from two decades ago. The USA is now in 47th place for life expectancy.
Andorra is number one - life expectancy of 83.4 years.
Personally I'll stick with the care we get here in France and Belgium ...
Patricia
Andorra is number one - life expectancy of 83.4 years.
Personally I'll stick with the care we get here in France and Belgium ...
Patricia
Aug 13th, 2007, 06:21 AM
#108
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PBProvence
ditto to your comments. That the U.S. is 47th is a national shame and an iditement of our health care system where the rich only can afford treatments and screenings routinely given to all in many countries.
W could have a colonoscopy which found several benign polyps that were quickly removed.
A poor bloke who could not afford the about $2,000 for a colonoscopy even though they may have family history, blood in stood, etc. may well later die from colon cancer - in the process inflicting huge expenses that hospitals, government, etc. will have to pick up. Scrrenings are a good investment in money and in extending our abysmal life expectancy.
In W's case i wonder if they went up the right hole - hard to tell which one IMO
ditto to your comments. That the U.S. is 47th is a national shame and an iditement of our health care system where the rich only can afford treatments and screenings routinely given to all in many countries.
W could have a colonoscopy which found several benign polyps that were quickly removed.
A poor bloke who could not afford the about $2,000 for a colonoscopy even though they may have family history, blood in stood, etc. may well later die from colon cancer - in the process inflicting huge expenses that hospitals, government, etc. will have to pick up. Scrrenings are a good investment in money and in extending our abysmal life expectancy.
In W's case i wonder if they went up the right hole - hard to tell which one IMO
Aug 13th, 2007, 06:30 AM
#109
Today's <b>Le Parisien</b> devoted its front page to "medical tourism" by the French. It is revealed that many French go to Hungary and Turkey for major dental work, to Belgium, Spain or Greece for artificial insemination and fertility treatments, and to Morocco or Tunisia for nip & tuck festivities.
It is mentioned that since May 2006, a resident of France can be treated in any of the 27 EU countries and be reimbursed according to the French reimbursement scales. However, it is pointed out that in the case of malpractice, you are completely on your own outside of your own country.
It is mentioned that since May 2006, a resident of France can be treated in any of the 27 EU countries and be reimbursed according to the French reimbursement scales. However, it is pointed out that in the case of malpractice, you are completely on your own outside of your own country.
Aug 13th, 2007, 06:44 AM
#110
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Given what I have read about one-size-fits-all European healthcare plans provided at taxpayer expense, I am not envious of European health coverage. If I were a habitually unemployed high school dropout, I would probably feel otherwise.
I'm not wealthy, nor are most Americans that purchase their own health insurance (many with employer subsidies). Typically, I can see my doctor within a day and a specialist within a week. I am not put on waiting lists nor am I forced to wait in line with winos and drug addicts because we're all on the same plan.
On a different subject, I believe that the US has relatively poor life expectancy, in part, because of discrepancies in the manner that health statistics are determined. In the US, a baby that is born alive and lives only a few moments (or hours, or days) is counted as a live birth and an infant mortality. In many European nations, a baby must survive for a specified period of time (several days, I believe) or it is classified as a still birth and does not influence the infant mortality statistics.
One does not have to be mathematically gifted to understand that this both increases the US infant mortality rate and decreases the average US life expectancy, which is projected from the moment of birth. The inclusion of babies that live only a few hours in determinations of life expectancy will depress the average.
I'm not wealthy, nor are most Americans that purchase their own health insurance (many with employer subsidies). Typically, I can see my doctor within a day and a specialist within a week. I am not put on waiting lists nor am I forced to wait in line with winos and drug addicts because we're all on the same plan.
On a different subject, I believe that the US has relatively poor life expectancy, in part, because of discrepancies in the manner that health statistics are determined. In the US, a baby that is born alive and lives only a few moments (or hours, or days) is counted as a live birth and an infant mortality. In many European nations, a baby must survive for a specified period of time (several days, I believe) or it is classified as a still birth and does not influence the infant mortality statistics.
One does not have to be mathematically gifted to understand that this both increases the US infant mortality rate and decreases the average US life expectancy, which is projected from the moment of birth. The inclusion of babies that live only a few hours in determinations of life expectancy will depress the average.
Aug 13th, 2007, 07:04 AM
#111
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>Given what I have read about one-size-fits-all European healthcare plans provided at taxpayer expense, I am not envious of European health coverage.
Are you are as informed about the healthcare system as you are about the education systems? From hearsay?
> In many European nations, a baby must survive for a specified period of time (several days, I believe) or it is classified as a still birth
Another hearsay. Which countries do this? Not Germany, not France, not UK, not the Scandinavian countries. And yes, just like in US, everything humanly possible is done in a hospital to keep an early born baby alive (seems to be another American urban myth about Europe).
>If I were a habitually unemployed high school dropout, I would probably feel otherwise.
And how would you feel if you were a hard working, well educated specialist diagnosed with some protracted illness and subsequently laid off in course of the company´s restructuring?
Are you are as informed about the healthcare system as you are about the education systems? From hearsay?
> In many European nations, a baby must survive for a specified period of time (several days, I believe) or it is classified as a still birth
Another hearsay. Which countries do this? Not Germany, not France, not UK, not the Scandinavian countries. And yes, just like in US, everything humanly possible is done in a hospital to keep an early born baby alive (seems to be another American urban myth about Europe).
>If I were a habitually unemployed high school dropout, I would probably feel otherwise.
And how would you feel if you were a hard working, well educated specialist diagnosed with some protracted illness and subsequently laid off in course of the company´s restructuring?
Aug 13th, 2007, 07:06 AM
#112
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<There are a lot of theories and opinions in this thread, but, in the end, who's gonna pay for it? YOU the customer. As usual.>
i've heard several 'experts' say all the money spent in Iraq - for the war and to give medical attention to the many more seriously wounded than even those killed and who will require care for years
plus future monies we will have to spend in Iraq -
all that money could have funded universe health care for several years!
yes taxpayers going to pay for it but tax monies can be better used than to find an ill-advise, winless war.
and those who think the taxpayer is going to pay for universal health care - that's a rather naive casual look
the folks who don't have health care and don't get preventative care do end up in the ER when they get ill and if seriously ill - the government in some form or other pays the chit.
and industries too are finding that they can become less competitive due to rising health care costs - a government plan relieving them of this could reap benefits in better business and less unemployment.
But the real reason for universal single-payer health care is that we are a compassionate society and everyone should get the best health care possible and this is a cost a compassionate society should bear - with efforts of course to keep health care costs (doctor fees, drug company profits, etc.) as low as possible
universla health care may indeed cost less to society than our current system.
Aug 13th, 2007, 07:13 AM
#113
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Smueller
<<I believe that the US has relatively poor life expectancy, in part, because of discrepancies in the manner that health statistics are determined.>>
Where does this belief come from? or is it just a hunch which makes you feel better about some negative statistics gathered by reputable agencies?
<<I believe that the US has relatively poor life expectancy, in part, because of discrepancies in the manner that health statistics are determined.>>
Where does this belief come from? or is it just a hunch which makes you feel better about some negative statistics gathered by reputable agencies?
Aug 13th, 2007, 07:15 AM
#114
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I'm still sorting out my views about the ideal healthcare system.
But what really surprised me about the UK healthcare system (NHS) is the number of patients who blow off appointments because their healthcare is "free."
When I finally got to see a specialist last month for my knee problem, in the hospital's outpatient waiting area was a board displaying the number of missed appointments (for specialist consultations, x-rays, lab tests, etc.) for a previous month. Not just a few, or a few dozen, but hundreds of appointments weren't kept. In a single month, at just one hospital. (The figures didn't include those who called to cancel or re-arrange appointments, only those who simply didn't show up at all.)
But what really surprised me about the UK healthcare system (NHS) is the number of patients who blow off appointments because their healthcare is "free."
When I finally got to see a specialist last month for my knee problem, in the hospital's outpatient waiting area was a board displaying the number of missed appointments (for specialist consultations, x-rays, lab tests, etc.) for a previous month. Not just a few, or a few dozen, but hundreds of appointments weren't kept. In a single month, at just one hospital. (The figures didn't include those who called to cancel or re-arrange appointments, only those who simply didn't show up at all.)
Aug 13th, 2007, 07:33 AM
#115
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>I'm not wealthy, nor are most Americans that purchase their own health insurance (many with employer subsidies). Typically, I can see my doctor within a day and a specialist within a week.
So can I.
>I am not put on waiting lists
neither am I
>nor am I forced to wait in line with winos and drug addicts because we're all on the same plan.
Besides the arrogance contained in this sentence, I assume that you don´t have an idea what you are writing about. What "plan"? Do you complain about having to visit the same doctor as the alcoholics and drug addicts?
So can I.
>I am not put on waiting lists
neither am I
>nor am I forced to wait in line with winos and drug addicts because we're all on the same plan.
Besides the arrogance contained in this sentence, I assume that you don´t have an idea what you are writing about. What "plan"? Do you complain about having to visit the same doctor as the alcoholics and drug addicts?
Aug 13th, 2007, 07:45 AM
#117
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<nor am I forced to wait in line with winos and drug addicts because we're all on the same plan>
wow yes arrogant - you deserve better health care than others? i'd hate to be the 'wino' or drug addict having to wait in a line with you.
i wouldn't doubt you are a 'good Christian' too? Oh that guy who looks like a bum in line, well that's Jesus, he just looks like a bum!
Under a single payer national health plan you'll be seeing the same doctors you do now and the winos and drug addicts still won't be getting much health care unless they're at death's door (due to their own neglect) so i don't think you'll be anymore in line with them than now.
wow yes arrogant - you deserve better health care than others? i'd hate to be the 'wino' or drug addict having to wait in a line with you.
i wouldn't doubt you are a 'good Christian' too? Oh that guy who looks like a bum in line, well that's Jesus, he just looks like a bum!
Under a single payer national health plan you'll be seeing the same doctors you do now and the winos and drug addicts still won't be getting much health care unless they're at death's door (due to their own neglect) so i don't think you'll be anymore in line with them than now.
Aug 13th, 2007, 07:52 AM
#120
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There are other reasons for missed appointments that kenderina didn't mention: the condition of some people might have worsened, and they might have been admitted to hospital. Some might have died.
There might also be happier cases, where worrying symptoms have abated, and people don't think to inform the hospital.
In Ireland and, I suppose, the UK, hospital management are aware of how things are, and they usually schedule more cases per session than can be taken, knowing the average "no-show" rates.
There might also be happier cases, where worrying symptoms have abated, and people don't think to inform the hospital.
In Ireland and, I suppose, the UK, hospital management are aware of how things are, and they usually schedule more cases per session than can be taken, knowing the average "no-show" rates.
