$$ Assessment Post (Next will be timing etc.)

Ok so I've mapped this out a bit and will assume a bit of variance in terms of what I actually consider the official "start" day once touched down and recuperated and all that.... but this is a ROUGH fleshed out itinerary and cost assessment. Feel free to berate away and critique as much as you want.

Things to note:
- Flights to/from are based on WOW prices. Yeah, I get the risk that comes with this. Crappy seats and extra money for bags. I don't eat or drink anything on airplanes and I'm not in need of in flight entertainment so I've only assumed an incremental $50 for a checked bag (will keep it light) and just stay on top of my times/announcements and assume some delays.

- Lazy google search yielded average hostile costs can be around ~$30 per person. Assuming some variation here ($15-$45) but will call it $30 for simplicity here.

- Assuming a week AirBnB in Barcelona (priced out) $250-$300 per person. (Meeting an ex girlfriend here to share in cost on the week)


$340(+$50 for bag) - Departure flight from SF
$40 - Train #1 Thalys (Paris to Amsterdam)
$43 - Train #2 Bahn (Amsterdam to Berlin)
$90 -- Flight from Berlin to Budapest
$182 -- Flight from Budapest to Barcelona
$395 (+$50 for bag) -- Return flight from Barcelona to SF
$500 - 16 days in hostels
$300 - AirBnb

$1,990 Total Travel + Lodging
26 actual travel days * $100 per day in spending = $2600

Total Cost = ~$4500-$4600

Questions:

Is this too much to assume for spending? I would think I'm totally not going to spend $100 a day. Some days could be just a quick bite in a market and on my way to explore. Also this would need to factor in a museum pass in say Paris, Amsterdam etc.

** Rough Intinerary **

Flight Out = 11/5 (WOW $340) SF→ Paris

Paris (11/7-11/9)
**Train on AM of 11/10** -- Via Thalys (Every other hour IE 8:00am, 10:00am, Noon) $40

Amsterdam 11/11-11/13
**Train on AM of 11/14** -- 9:01AM -- 3PM (6hours) $43 - bahn.de

Berlin (11/15-11/17)
Flight on AM of 11/18 - via airberlin TXL - BUD 8:00am -> 10:00M - $90 for 1.5hr vs 8-9 hour rail

Budapest (11/19-11/21)
Flight on AM of 11/22 -- VIA KLM BUD - BCM 12:50PM - 7:00PM - $182 (1 Hr in AMS)

Barcelona 11/23 - 12/1 (would split time to Lisbon here or just take an extra day or two and add to prior destinations)


Barcelona → SF ($395 - WOW on 12/2)

I think your new itinerady looks excellent and well thought out. If I had to nitpick, I would add a day to Paris, but you can see a lot in 3 days.
And why did you omit Prague? Budapest is beautiful but nothing like Prague.

$100/day excluding accommodation is actually more than enough for someone staying in hostels. But it's always good to budget more than less.

I spent $100-$120 per day on average in Spain, and that INCLUDED my 3-star hotel accommodation, museums, and a nice dinner.

It doesn't appear you have any feedback on WOW airlines so here's my take on it. I have flown on WOW four times.

You indicate you have already reviewed their policies (no food, no entertainment and miniscule luggage size/weight unless you pay extra are just a few) so you know their quirks; you will be fine. I think a lot of people don't read the fine print and as a result become very surprised.

On some airline review websites there are comments about terrible delays; personally I have not experienced any significant delays on WOW longer than 45 minutes and have never missed a connecting flight (FYI-we fly out of BWI).

I didn't feel their seats were any smaller or larger or less comfortable than other airlines we have used (United, British Airways, American Airlines, Icelandair).

I would use them again - and in fact plan on using them in November.

What an interesting discussion!!!

November in N.Europe????? If I had nggyk's guidelines,I'd scratch the whole plan so far and do Barcelona, Madrid,(maybe a bit chilly)Seville, Marseilles, Genoa, Rome, Naples and Palermo. Sunshine, relatively dry so plenty of cafe sitting, great food and cultural opportunities aplenty. Then again, maybe I'd spend the whole month in Sicily.

I'd return to N. Europe when the days are longer, dryer, sunnier and warmer . . . and I could take off my boots and parka.

Good luck to you nggyk, and whatever you decide, happy traveling.

I wouldn't necessarily scrap all of northern Europe just because it will be November, but maybe you might rethink the amount of time in northern vs southern Europe at that time of year. I didn't see anywhere where you say how you came to choose the places you did - other than that people suggested those places (were they taking into consideration the time of year?). They are all great places, and some time in northern cities can still be great even in November. But the hours of day light, the temps, the ambiance, etc. will be something to at least consider. Some of those cities (Paris especially) are beautifully lit at night so having more hours of darkness isn't necessarily a negative. And of course when you are in a museum you don't care what it's like outside. But southern Italy and Spain will be more pleasant for general 'sight seeing' so think about substituting Rome and Seville (or Lisbon) for Berlin and Budapest.

AHAHA! This is screwing with my head..but I get the ratonale.

Obviously I can always go back and take small mini one week type trips. It's not like this is the ONLY time I'll ever be able to go.. but this is indeed the ONLY time I'll be able to carve out a good month long chunk to go. Is it inopportune because of weather? Sure. But I'm not necessarily a slave to the super duper nice weather. But having said that, I'm totally on board with embracing some warmer temps.

I'm really just picking places based on some research and anecdotal reccomendations, that's about it. I don't have an overly one-sided agenda tendency here.. meaning I'd like a little of everything! Sight seeing, co-mingling and culture, cuisine, and a big one is definitely museums and art. So just the full experience.. I know that's vague but that's all I can really say!

OK so back to the drawing board:

Paris and Amsterdam I'd really like to see. I can scrap Berlin and Budapest for perhaps two Italian region cities? Rome and perhaps another? Not I'm wondering how this would work logisitcally... Still Paris--Amsterdam and then Italy(ish) region and on to Spain?

You'll have a great trip.

Our son just did a similar trip but at the end of March. He knew where he was starting (Prague) and ending (Warsaw) and the one place he had to be on a certain date (Berlin). Other than that he went where he felt like. Hostels always had plenty of room. About three nights a place. Even last minute transportation was pretty cheap.

Maybe you could leave yourself a bit of flexibility in the middle by delaying your arrival into Barcelona. You might want to drop a place or go to a couple of new ones.

Here's what I think I would do in your situation:

SF-Amsterdam (1 night)
Amsterdam (4 nights - I always add an extra night to my first city to account for jet lag)
High speed train to Paris
Paris (4 nights)
Fly to Venice
Venice (3 nights - I love Venice and I've heard it's beautiful in the winter)
High speed train to Rome
Rome, day trip to Pompeii (4 nights)
Fly to Barcelona
Barcelona (4 nights)
Train to Lisbon
Lisbon (3 nights)
Lisbon-SF

I just realized that I did my math wrong and only gave you 23 nights.

It would be pretty cold there, but what about Zurich? It would be very different from your other locations, but it's close enough that it couldn't be a good midpoint if you want to take the train from Paris to Venice. (I'm a big fan of trains in Europe, obviously.) New itinerary would look like this:

SF-Amsterdam (1 night)
Amsterdam (4 nights)
Train to Paris
Paris (4 nights)
Train to Zurich
Zurich (3 nights)
Train to Venice
Venice (3 nights)
Train to Rome
Rome (4 nights)
Fly to Barcelona
Barcelona 4 nights)
Train to Lisbon
Lisbon (3 nights)
Lisbon-SF

For this cold hating person, Venice and Lisbon would be too chilly, damp and gray in November. Check the weather statistics. IMHO Venice is best left for nicer weather and used, because of the excellent train connections, as a gateway into the Dolomites, the Tyrol and the rest of NE Italy. . . .or to Eastern Europe starting with the lovelies Trieste and Ljubljana and working to Berlin. Think of the Hapsburg Empire.

Again nggyk, you'll have a good time planning all of this. Are you a bit sorry you asked for advice?

I am the opposite - we are spending 11 days over Christmas and NYE this year in Venice. I hate it in the warm weather, swarmed by cruise ships and day trippers. I am looking forward to the cool, foggy days with hopefully fewer tourists. I am ok with a bit of rain - it provides atmosphere.

jamikins

Venice is one of those all season places like Paris . . . just depends on what one is looking for. I've found Venice very doable even with all the tourists.Most of them, as you said, are day trippers leaving Venice relatively "empty" during the eve and mornings. Also, the side streets are barely traveled and few of the day trippers go to the islands. During the day I take the train to Somewhere Else so I go when the daylight hours are longer. (Just seeing those giant cruise ships bothers me though.)

You will find the atmosphere you seek and will also have a peaceful time.

I totally agree about seeing the cruise ships!

Is there any issue with water levels at this time of year in Venice?

Also, given that I'm now entertaining a double Italian leg.... are there any other options to entertain before Rome like Florence etc.? Is Venice the ideal "tack-on" city here? I know "ideal" is subjective but just curious as to the allure to Venice vs say any other option or two.

This is great feedback though guys! Really!

Yup November is actually the worst month in Venice in terms of rain and flooding.

November and December in Venice will have lots of high water.
I was there for 3 days during Christmas two years ago - the 23 through 26th - there was not much open at all during those three days, including the nearby islands. Everyone had to jump up on improvised bridges - made out of tables, benches...I would not qualify this as an enjoyable trip.

November is the only month we have never visited Europe. But, here is what I can tell you from observations in October and December. You my also want to factor these things in that no one has mention as far as I can tell.

Daylight--the further north you are the less you will have. Think dark at 5:00. I remember being absolutely miserable in Krakow in the early part of October in rain and low temperatures--same general weather pattern other northerly places.

Take a look at this great website I found recently. I think it may help you with your decision.

http://www.whereandwhen.net/when/fra...deaux/october/

I'd concentrate on the more southerly places (including Venice). Have you thought about Sicily?

One more thing: You will visit Europe again. Don't let yourself think that this will be your only trip.

We are really into photography so even with the high water levels in Venice we are up for an enjoyable trip. To each their own. The less that is open, the less people in my photos

What's the allure of a flooded/wet venice versus say a Florence? If to pick one southern spot aside from Rome, what's a good one from a balanced perspective?