NorCalif

Holly - (I'm the OP) I think you're on to something.

The enforcement is certainly capricious in terms of time and place - that is, at different times and different places in Venice, the sellers carried on openly with no interference. We also noticed when we were in Rome that the sellers, when they saw police nearby, would look very watchful and alert, but they didn't pack up their wares unless the police headed straight in their direction. (Reminded me of gazelles watching the lions at a watering hole - they're waiting to see if the lions are hungry.)

I find it completely believable that the intermittent enforcement may also be determined by protection rackets, turf battles, etc. Here in the US I have heard of informal turf assignments among people begging for money - if an "unauthorized" person tries to beg on a given street corner that "belongs" to someone else, they are beaten up, chased away, etc.

Robespierre

"The only conclusion I could draw..."

Or maybe the three Italians didn't care to take on six Africans when they could easily overwhelm one Indian. A tactical decision.

NeoPatrick

The only part I don't get about this whole story is that apparently the Australian guy was BLIND? How else could anyone be in Venice for more than an hour and not have seen dozens of Africans selling handbags? Why would he have thought they stole them? Or did this Australian just arrive in Venice a few minutes earlier than this episode and had somehow not yet seen these guys everywhere in Venice selling the purses?

If not blind, he certainly was stupid. Who in his right mind would try to take stolen merchandise from a running thief who is being chased rapidly on foot by police?

Meanwhile, I too have seen these guys sort of run from the police, but I have yet to see a single policeman exert the energy to actually chase them. It seems to be more of a "game" where the policeman see them and head towards them, then the sellers grab their stuff and run to a new location, but I can't imagine the police actually chasing them and grabbing them and making an arrest. It's not unlike a dog chasing a car. What on earth would it do if it actually caught one?

TravMimi

I guess the choice is, simply keep running them off, or get serious and stop them. I'm afriad if they get serious these guys will turn to violent crime. These types are not the immigrants who play by the book and do legal entry level work. Washing dishes just isn't in their plan.

tomassocroccante

<<why did they go after the 1 Indian guy on the bridge, when they could have netted 6 African guys in front of the church?
>>

Robspierre is likely right: 3 on 1 is a do-able bust; 3 on 6 may have seemed more trouble.

Just as likely: the guy had ben told repeatedly not to do business on the bridge! We have vendors both licensed and otherwise on the streets of NYC, but in some places they create a hazard (or at least a nuisance) by blocking the sidewalks.

On the overall issue of vendors: Italians have long been a "resourceful" people regarding business - as others have noted, a few years ago there was not much attempt to stifle the various vendors - but as they became more numerous (and more disregarding of regulations, public safety, selling of fraudulently branded products that insult the Italian-owned companies they pretend to be from), a crackdown was naturally going to come around. After all, as much as we all love the Italian marketplace, do we love it being extended to every street and historic square metre?

I used the word fraudlently above intentionally: when it comes to putting a brand name on a product not made by that company, a fraud is perpetrated. I think most of us agree that fraud is legitimately considered a crime. No matter how much disdain one might have for Hermes or Nike, one still hopes that the Nikon will be a real Nikon, the olive oil the real olive oil. Apply the situation to your own business or favorite products ...

A note: though fake LV bags and Bulgari watches have been available on Canal Street in NY for decades, when I last encountered a street vendor in Rome he was selling some innocuously-named wallets and purses. Cheap. I bought a couple of them that didn't look to bad to give to my young nieces - not fine Italian leather by any means, but for little girls who would keep Pokemon cards in them, just the thing.

I also recall staying in the decidedly un-tourist town of Sutri, about 50 KM north of Rome. One day my friend and I encountered an African man walking through town with his wallets and some other goods. He spoke pretty fair English, and visited a while with us. I think he and a couple of friends had shared transportation and were each making the rounds of various small towns, trying to sell some inventory. I didn't envy his job. None of his goods were luxury-branded, or branded at all to my memory. Maybe today that would be different.

I do know for a fact that NONE of the luxury producers has a problem with vendors selling "nearly like" items with no branding. It would be futile, as some have mentioned above, and their customers could care less either. But buyers of high-end do not like seeing a duplicate item with false branding on every street corner.

Personally, I don't like wearing labels on the outside, and it's always a little disappointing to find a garment I like that has been ruined by a prominent logo - especially for a company whose image I think doesn't suit me!

OH, yeah! NorCalif: ethically, I think if I saw someone grab someone's purse or camera and I was in a position to interfere without risk to bodily harm, I'd likely do it. But a supposed thief being chased by the police? I'd stay out of the way and let the cops, gendarmes or caribineri do their work. That's how they prefer it.

A similar but more disturbing ethical dilemma: you're on the street and see a man and woman on the verge (it appears) of physical violence; or you witness a parent who seems to have lost all sense of scale in the way they're going after their small kid. Let's say there's no uniform around to turn to. What next?

In my own experience I have: called 911 to report people scoping parked cars for the obvious purpose of gfinding one to break into; walked a couple of blocks until I found a police car to describe two kids seen down the street, one teaching the other how to snatch purses from old ladies (I kid you not); reported a threatening character on the subway platform to the station attendant; etc. But intervened myself? Not yet. (I have, however, repeatedly told people not to spit on the bus floor, not to litter the subway platform or street ["excuse me, you dropped this"] etc. More than once the perpetrators have convincingly seemed to think that I was restricting their freedom!)

Holly_uncasdewar

Well, then, here's another that baffles me. Three years ago, in Venice, artist Roberto had his stand set up in his permitted spot outisde of P. San Marco, in front of the post office. He's been selling in this spot for years. After dark, some Africans came by and set up their bags on the ground about 10 feet away from Roberto. Mad as hell, he couldn't get them to move and, since he believed they were ruining his business for the night, he moved his cart and paintings into the piazza. Not much later, the caribinieri came along and fined him 100 E. for selling inside the piazza, when his permit was for another location. He explained to them why he felt he had to move, to no avail. They fined him on the spot, he paid it, and they let him remain in the piazza for the rest of the evening. Yet, the African guys remained set up with their bags on the calle in front of the post office for quite some time after that, never being chased away.

I think one can reasonably assume that the Africans did not have a permit for their ground space in front of the post office.

When I asked Roberto what was up with that, he just kept saying that it is all illegal, but "they" won't do anything about it.

sandi

I've seen African and other ethnicities selling "fake" somethings in many large cities around the world. And, if those you buy can't figure out they're not getting the real thing, so be it. But to get involved in a police chase when you have no idea what's going on... a screw is loose.

In NYC, there are permitted vendors on street corners everywhere. Some have copies that don't fit the criterea for being illegal. As many do and have many of the "ladies who lunch" who are tired after 3/months of their original $5,000 Chanel and want a "good fake." These guys can accommodate.

It's even funnier watching when the police raid Canal Street in NYC on a Saturday afternoon when everyone is in from the burbs to stock up on fake LV, Gucci, Fendi, etc. to sell at mark-up to their neighbors. Tourists too are here to see what "buys" they can find. Everyone runs for cover, the stands are bare in a hot second, you'd never know anything illegal might be going on. Only in NY kiddies, only in NY.

What defines copies of what was seen on the red carpet at the Oscar's, ripped off from the shows in Paris or Bryant Park or handbags sold on street corners elsewhere. Beats me.

Lucky us, we found a guy in a non-descript store where we stopped for directions (even as New Yorkers, we ask) that makes hand-stitched leather copies of designer bags. At half the price and 2/weeks you can have the Hermes Birken bag from a single croc skin, or Nancy Gonzales or other designers... just tell him what you want and joila.

Back to the issue - I believe, as with drugs... if there were no buyers, there wouldn't be any sellers. But then, there hasn't been anything new under the sun since the beginning of time. Same ole, same ole!

sarge56

Well, I just returned from 8 days in Italy. I never saw a single "illegal" purse vendor in Venice. We saw two or three in Florence, and not surprisingly, dozens and dozens of them in Rome. They were lined up along the wall to the Vatican Museums entrance, no doubt because the line is always long enough to hide most of them from the street, and thus, the police.

We did see several run from near the Vatican when a couple of police cars came by. And one night, while eating dinner outdoors near the Trevi, we saw what looked to be like two uniformed officers "hiding in wait" while an undercover officer identified the sellers. Three separate times, we saw the 3 officers walking back down the street with several confiscated purses, but no "perps". We concluded that they were more interested in getting the fake bags off the street than in apprehending the sellers.

P

tomassocroccante

There is a long=standing tolerance for "copies" in the fashion industry (by the courts, at least), and most clothing design has not been protected. Minor changes from the original are easy - and, true, there is little new under the sun. The variations on a shift that come from one maker are hardly revolutionary, so copying them is not often considered criminal or an infringement.

A recent NYTimes article pointed to the way the copiers now go from the fashion show to their drawing board and computer, send the knockoff designs to their factories in India or China etc, and have the copies in the store before the originals. That's got to hurt.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/04/us...mp;oref=slogin

SeaUrchin

One of the first times I visited NYC I was strolling along and stopped to look at the jewelry of a seller who had his wares on a cardboard box contraption.

I picked up a piece to ask him the price and we heard a whistle which was an alert from another seller and this guy closed up the box and ran off, leaving me holding the necklace.

The police ran along the sidewalk and I thought they were coming at me so I held it out and they ran past. So I kept it, there was no one around to return it to anyway.

Now I know it wasn't a knockoff but maybe this fellow just didn't have a seller's license?

tomassocroccante

A report I heard yesterday said economists attribute at least 50% of a company's actual value to the brand reputation.

Interestingly, this accompanied an opinion piece about the dropping value of "Brand USA" in the international marketplace. Where previously anything American had added value just by that association, now the reverse is true in very many places. With the huge investment American companies like Coke and McDonalds have abroad (Coke has bigger sales outside the US than inside), many companies are working at identifying themselves with the host country: McDonald's for instance has licensed a famed French cartoon character (not TinTin, can't recall which) and abandoned Ronald McDonald in France. Some of us wo0uldn't mind if they changed that image here in the US!

Caramia79

Why are all these sellers always African? Where are all these people coming from and why are they selling fake handbags all over Italy? Doesn't that seem strange? Why don't the police want them there? Because they are selling fake bags illegally or because the sellers themselves don't belong there for reasons other than the fake bags?

Johnmango

Girlspytravel:

Do you understand what are they saying in the You Tube video you attached?

I could only pick up a word here and there with my limited Italian - just interested in knowing what is narrated.

Holly_uncasdewar

It's all becoming very clear to me as I read "Gomorrah" by Roberto Saviano.

NorCalif

Holly - I just looked up the Gomorrah book on Amazon. All the reviews are glowing, although the subject matter of the book is quite horrifying evidently. I know this is probably abdicating my responsibility as an adult member of society, but it sounds like the book is one I just would not be able to read, as I am the most unbelievable lily-liver when it comes to violence in books, movies, etc. (I'm not proud of my inability to deal with reality BTW, so please don't anyone bother to point out that's what it is.)

Holly, would you care to give us a synopsis of what you found out in the book, especially as it relates to sidewalk sellers, "fake" consumer goods, etc.?

Anyway, thanks for the info.

Holly_uncasdewar

Well, I'm only a fifth of the way through the book, but I now understand why the cops go after the tourists who buy the street stuff (much easier), than go after the street sellers (and deal with their "employers&quot. Which was my suspicion all along, but it's another thing to see it all explained in black and white. I can't imagine where on earth the author is living where he's not in fear for his life. NorCalif, you really should give the book a try. At least so far, it's not particularly gory, just tells it like it is. Although that could change in the next chapter, I suppose.

whizkid

To add to this thread, this is from the Economist last year (economist.com)Read this and the Saviano book, Gomorrah, mentioned earlier and street vendors in Italy take on a new meaning. They are not random, individual migrants. So do we buy from them?


"If they think about it at all, tourists and locals alike probably assume these traders are just a disorganised, random sample of Europe's vast army of human flotsam and jetsam, desperate migrants from poor places who arrive in leaky boats. In reality, the traders on the streets leading to the Vatican are anything but disorganised. They are members of a highly disciplined international community, at once religious and economic, with headquarters in another holy city—Touba, in the heart of Senegal, three hours' drive from Dakar, the capital.

Like so many Senegalese migrants (some of whom drive taxis in New York or pick lemons in Spain), those Roman peddlers belong to a dynamic Sufi Muslim movement called the Mourides. They are followers of Cheikh Amadou Bamba, a religious leader who died in 1927. Inspired by his teaching, they have made an ingenious response to the advent of global markets in goods and labour.

Most of Senegal's 11m people are Muslims, and they usually belong to one or other of two big movements, the Mourides or the older Tidjanes. Bamba described the teaching now known as Mouridism as a return to Islam's roots. But his Islam has little in common with the more austere variety propagated from Saudi Arabia. For one thing, Mouridism has a cult of saints and shrines—including the tomb of its founder—which devout Saudis would reject. But the self-sufficient Mourides don't care; they raise money for their favourite causes and build their own mosques with no need of Saudi cash.

SeaUrchin

That is really interesting, I would like to find the original article in The Economist. Thanks.

dperry

I saw the selling of illegal bags everywhere in Venice and Florence. I thought it was disgusting, and diminishes these great cities. Apparently I am not alone. As I stood in front of the Doge Palace I saw a posted flyer encouraging Venetians to rise up against these sellers of illegal goods. The writers of the flyer also believed that this practice detracted from the beauty of the city. I couldn't agree more.

WillTravel

The Economist article is here:
http://www.economist.com/world/inter...ory_id=8450228