Ethical question re: illegal scene witnessed in Venice
Nov 2nd, 2007, 07:25 AM
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Ethical question re: illegal scene witnessed in Venice
I'm interested in people's takes on the following:
Last summer my husband and I and our two teenagers were walking through a square in Venice. There were sidewalk cafes with people sitting outside at one side of the square, but other than that it was somewhat empty, with just a couple of people walking along.
Suddenly, two African men came racing through the square, each carrying 3 or 4 handbags. Two policemen were chasing them at top speed, on foot. A passerby, a middle-aged Australian man apparently, grabbed some of the handbags from one of the African men as he ran by. The African man stopped and tried to grab the bags back. Quite a tug-of-war ensued for a minute or two.
Then people at the sidewalk cafe began yelling at the Australian man telling him to give the bags back to the African man. The Australian man looked totally bewildered and yelled, "But he stole them!" The cafe patrons yelled back, "No he didn't. They're his. These people have nothing. Give them back."
Just then one of the policeman reached them (the other policeman kept going after the other African man, who had kept running and disappeared). The policeman walked off with the African man and the Australian man, as the Australian man gave the cafe patrons an extremely outraged look.
I was naive enough to not understand at all what had just happened, so I walked over to a couple of the cafe patrons and asked if any of them spoke English and could explain to me what was going on.
The person closest to me grabbed his money off the table - he clearly thought I was up to no good myself (which I almost took as a compliment, boring middle-class middle-aged person that I am: I suddenly saw myself as an international adventurer). Anyway, he said he didn't speak English. Then my husband and kids came up, so he figured out I was just a clueless tourist, and he relented and explained that the African men were sidewalk vendors, selling illegally (I'm not sure if the handbags were illegal knock-offs or if they didn't have selling permits or both), and that every now and then the police made a sweep through the squares to round them up.
The whole incident prompted a very interesting discussion with our kids for the rest of the day. It brought up complex issues about laws, justice, cultural attitudes towards same, immigrants, the haves and the have-nots, bravery that might or might not be misplaced, etc.
Do any of you know more about these kind of situations, with the sidewalk vendors in Venice and elsewhere? Thoughts on the whole thing?
Last summer my husband and I and our two teenagers were walking through a square in Venice. There were sidewalk cafes with people sitting outside at one side of the square, but other than that it was somewhat empty, with just a couple of people walking along.
Suddenly, two African men came racing through the square, each carrying 3 or 4 handbags. Two policemen were chasing them at top speed, on foot. A passerby, a middle-aged Australian man apparently, grabbed some of the handbags from one of the African men as he ran by. The African man stopped and tried to grab the bags back. Quite a tug-of-war ensued for a minute or two.
Then people at the sidewalk cafe began yelling at the Australian man telling him to give the bags back to the African man. The Australian man looked totally bewildered and yelled, "But he stole them!" The cafe patrons yelled back, "No he didn't. They're his. These people have nothing. Give them back."
Just then one of the policeman reached them (the other policeman kept going after the other African man, who had kept running and disappeared). The policeman walked off with the African man and the Australian man, as the Australian man gave the cafe patrons an extremely outraged look.
I was naive enough to not understand at all what had just happened, so I walked over to a couple of the cafe patrons and asked if any of them spoke English and could explain to me what was going on.
The person closest to me grabbed his money off the table - he clearly thought I was up to no good myself (which I almost took as a compliment, boring middle-class middle-aged person that I am: I suddenly saw myself as an international adventurer). Anyway, he said he didn't speak English. Then my husband and kids came up, so he figured out I was just a clueless tourist, and he relented and explained that the African men were sidewalk vendors, selling illegally (I'm not sure if the handbags were illegal knock-offs or if they didn't have selling permits or both), and that every now and then the police made a sweep through the squares to round them up.
The whole incident prompted a very interesting discussion with our kids for the rest of the day. It brought up complex issues about laws, justice, cultural attitudes towards same, immigrants, the haves and the have-nots, bravery that might or might not be misplaced, etc.
Do any of you know more about these kind of situations, with the sidewalk vendors in Venice and elsewhere? Thoughts on the whole thing?
Nov 2nd, 2007, 07:35 AM
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This happens all the time. The African street vendors sell cheap fake handbags- it's not intended that anyone thinks they're the real thing! They usually don't have permits and set up in the street, with an eye out for the police. I've seen the same happen in Mexico City where a whole street market picked up their goods and ran. Once the police had walked on, they were all back. The Australian really should not have got involved. He misunderstood the situation. Best to leave this to economics and rhe 'market'. Presumably someone buys these goods or the vendors would not think it worthwhile.
Nov 2nd, 2007, 07:36 AM
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The bags are snides, the vendors do not have permits and may possibly be illegal immigrants.
As to the ethics here: Where is the victim? I can't see that Christian Dior etc are hurt by this, the buyers are aware that it is fairly unlikely that you can buy a real Hermes bag for €10 on the pavement and the sellers are behaving themselves and clearly elicit the sympathy of the locals.
As to the ethics here: Where is the victim? I can't see that Christian Dior etc are hurt by this, the buyers are aware that it is fairly unlikely that you can buy a real Hermes bag for €10 on the pavement and the sellers are behaving themselves and clearly elicit the sympathy of the locals.
Nov 2nd, 2007, 07:38 AM
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If I understand correctly, the Australian man apparently thought that the Africans were handbag thieves, rather than illegal vendors of fake-brand handbags. So the Australian thought he was helping the police by snatching the bags from the Africans?
Nov 2nd, 2007, 07:42 AM
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It's probably much safer to let these people illegally sell stuff on the streets. If not, I suspect violent crime would skyrocket. Look at the Romanian problem in Italy. Personally I don't see it as a "haves vs have nots". I see it as a character flaw. People who follow the laws don't cause much trouble for themselves or others. Not much can be done except chase them away from the law-abiding folks. Also some law-abiding folks suddenly develope a character flaw and buy junk from these people. Wish we could stop people from doing that.
Nov 2nd, 2007, 07:47 AM
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Nov 2nd, 2007, 07:51 AM
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Chol - I assume "snides" are "fakes"? - Just have to belabor the fact that we speak different languages ;->
WillTravel - Yes, the Australian man seemed to think the Africans had stolen someone's bags.
The whole incident aroused such conflicting emotions in me - on the one hand I thought the Australian man was brave for tackling what he thought was a thief and for not just standing idly by. On the other hand, I thought he was foolish for jumping into a situation which he clearly didn't understand. He seemed to feel so betrayed by the disapproval of the cafe patrons.
It was a perfect travel experience in many ways (if that doesn't sound too cold-hearted)- I just mean it was very thought-provoking. My kids were surprised that people felt comfortable being so openly hostile to the police. And we discussed for a long time the ramifications of jumping into situations to "right a wrong" when you don't really know what the "right" is. And we also discussed the fact that if it's illegal to sell the stuff, why isn't it illegal to buy it? Etc.
WillTravel - Yes, the Australian man seemed to think the Africans had stolen someone's bags.
The whole incident aroused such conflicting emotions in me - on the one hand I thought the Australian man was brave for tackling what he thought was a thief and for not just standing idly by. On the other hand, I thought he was foolish for jumping into a situation which he clearly didn't understand. He seemed to feel so betrayed by the disapproval of the cafe patrons.
It was a perfect travel experience in many ways (if that doesn't sound too cold-hearted)- I just mean it was very thought-provoking. My kids were surprised that people felt comfortable being so openly hostile to the police. And we discussed for a long time the ramifications of jumping into situations to "right a wrong" when you don't really know what the "right" is. And we also discussed the fact that if it's illegal to sell the stuff, why isn't it illegal to buy it? Etc.
Nov 2nd, 2007, 07:52 AM
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Yes, I think the Australian misundestood the situation. And yes, street vendors running from the police is quite a common situation here also 
Especially when they sell copies of CD's or DVD's. There are real mafias that use those poor people to sell their goods for a few euros.
Especially when they sell copies of CD's or DVD's. There are real mafias that use those poor people to sell their goods for a few euros.
Nov 2nd, 2007, 08:05 AM
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In Barcelona they set up along the streets, near plaza catalunya and various points near the marina, the bags usually on a sheet spread out with ropes tied underneath so they can grab the lot and run if the police turn up.
on more than one occasion I've seen 10 or more Africans (assuming) running from cops.
the ethical issue with buying the merchandise, even though the sellers may "have nothing" and may be trying to scrape a living, is that the imitation bags are usually made in sweatshops, and more than likely by children, in an uncontrolled environment.
The real labels on the other hand have to stick with human rights values, or at least appear to.
on more than one occasion I've seen 10 or more Africans (assuming) running from cops.
the ethical issue with buying the merchandise, even though the sellers may "have nothing" and may be trying to scrape a living, is that the imitation bags are usually made in sweatshops, and more than likely by children, in an uncontrolled environment.
The real labels on the other hand have to stick with human rights values, or at least appear to.
Nov 2nd, 2007, 08:16 AM
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When we were in Rome last June having a drink at one of the cafes in the P. Navona, the vendors suddenly picked up their bags and took off because of the police. One of them was running and a woman grabbed the bags from the fleeing man (she definitely was not a tourist). A tug-of-war also ensued for a minute but he let go and she got the bags. I guess the woman looked at it that it is illegal and felt justified in taking them from him. My husband and I thought it was funny because what she did was wrong too. We wonder if was going to try to sell the bags.
Nov 2nd, 2007, 08:22 AM
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"And we also discussed the fact that if it's illegal to sell the stuff, why isn't it illegal to buy it? Etc."
I have not actually noticed the "Bad Bag" campaign in Venice on my most recent trips there, but that campaign published and posted notices that buying the Bad Bags IS against the law and subject to €1000 fine and confiscation of the goods
I have not actually noticed the "Bad Bag" campaign in Venice on my most recent trips there, but that campaign published and posted notices that buying the Bad Bags IS against the law and subject to €1000 fine and confiscation of the goods
Nov 2nd, 2007, 08:38 AM
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NorCalif: They are called by the somewhat racist term in Italy "vu cumpra" (do you wanna buy?) which is an Italian mimicing the way the Africans, typically, poor Senegalese, speak Italian. They have been the subject of much controversy in the country for years.
It is a huge thing in Venice-the City decided that they would crack down hard in 2005 on the consumers in operation "bad bag"-if they catch you buying one of these fake bags, then you can be fined thousands of euros. Now, regularly, you will see the Carb going after them in Venice, (carabinieri-police) and when they see the Carb coming, they pick up their goods and run-they have huge sacks that they carry their purses in, and the Venetians will regularly come by and revile them, as they walk. I saw the Carb carting off one, marching him down the Ruga Giuffa, just this past March, as I was eating lunch in Venice. This crackdown is also true in Rome and Florence, but I don't see the people bothering them in these cities like they do in Venice, probably because Venice has no cars and is so much smaller, but Venetians do seem to be bothered by them a lot more than the Romans or Florentines. Mind you, this is a bit of a paradox for a left-wing government and a left-wing mayor, such as Mayor Cacciari, former communista, to take this perhaps somewhat unegalitarian approach to the situation, but that is the way it is now.
Myself, I see them as poor immigrants who want to make a living, and who are treated in a somewhat racist fashion-African immigrants are definitely on the outside in Italian society-even the local newspaper refers to them as the "vu cumpra." Donna Leon, the famous American writer who lives and writes of Venice, talks of them and hints at Camorra connections in her book "Blood from a Stone." However statistics from the Italian state police say there are very few, if any links between these sellers and organized crime, and/or other crimes-they really are just making a living off of fake bags and sunglasses.
Here is a YouTube video from Rome, outside the Castel Sant' Angelo called "Vendi e Fuggi" (Sell and Flee) which depicts the African sellers of fake goods and what they do when the Carb come their way-it sure can't be an easy way to make a living:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8HZNF4J31c
It is a huge thing in Venice-the City decided that they would crack down hard in 2005 on the consumers in operation "bad bag"-if they catch you buying one of these fake bags, then you can be fined thousands of euros. Now, regularly, you will see the Carb going after them in Venice, (carabinieri-police) and when they see the Carb coming, they pick up their goods and run-they have huge sacks that they carry their purses in, and the Venetians will regularly come by and revile them, as they walk. I saw the Carb carting off one, marching him down the Ruga Giuffa, just this past March, as I was eating lunch in Venice. This crackdown is also true in Rome and Florence, but I don't see the people bothering them in these cities like they do in Venice, probably because Venice has no cars and is so much smaller, but Venetians do seem to be bothered by them a lot more than the Romans or Florentines. Mind you, this is a bit of a paradox for a left-wing government and a left-wing mayor, such as Mayor Cacciari, former communista, to take this perhaps somewhat unegalitarian approach to the situation, but that is the way it is now.
Myself, I see them as poor immigrants who want to make a living, and who are treated in a somewhat racist fashion-African immigrants are definitely on the outside in Italian society-even the local newspaper refers to them as the "vu cumpra." Donna Leon, the famous American writer who lives and writes of Venice, talks of them and hints at Camorra connections in her book "Blood from a Stone." However statistics from the Italian state police say there are very few, if any links between these sellers and organized crime, and/or other crimes-they really are just making a living off of fake bags and sunglasses.
Here is a YouTube video from Rome, outside the Castel Sant' Angelo called "Vendi e Fuggi" (Sell and Flee) which depicts the African sellers of fake goods and what they do when the Carb come their way-it sure can't be an easy way to make a living:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8HZNF4J31c
Nov 2nd, 2007, 08:49 AM
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"the imitation bags are usually made in sweatshops, and more than likely by children, in an uncontrolled environment"
Not so
"designer" brands are often made in the same places as knockoffs. The only thing that's special about how designer brands are made is that the franchise holders for these things take not a thousandth of the trouble Gap, Hennes, M+S and - yes - Wal-Mart take to investigate the factories where their goods are made. I spend a reasonable amount of my life in these factories: the horridest ones are always making (legally, if unethically) the ponciest brands. And "knockoffs" often do indeed come from the same factory as legitimate stuff.
The reason knock-offs are illegal in the EU (and US) are that Dior etc resent seeing their brand devalued and have successfully lobbied their governments to make fraudulent sales illegal.
Farce might think this is a victimless crime. I couldn't possibly comment, but legislatures have decided otherwise. The French and Italian governments are particularly aroused about this, since so much of the world "luxury goods" (ie overpriced branded crap for idiots) market carries French or Italian logos, and the loopy prices idiots pay for "legitimate" products goes into the pockets of French and Italian companies.
Who, sadly, can pay for better lobbyists than the poor Somalis and Nigerians who are trying to make a living selling value for money products on the streets
Not so
"designer" brands are often made in the same places as knockoffs. The only thing that's special about how designer brands are made is that the franchise holders for these things take not a thousandth of the trouble Gap, Hennes, M+S and - yes - Wal-Mart take to investigate the factories where their goods are made. I spend a reasonable amount of my life in these factories: the horridest ones are always making (legally, if unethically) the ponciest brands. And "knockoffs" often do indeed come from the same factory as legitimate stuff.
The reason knock-offs are illegal in the EU (and US) are that Dior etc resent seeing their brand devalued and have successfully lobbied their governments to make fraudulent sales illegal.
Farce might think this is a victimless crime. I couldn't possibly comment, but legislatures have decided otherwise. The French and Italian governments are particularly aroused about this, since so much of the world "luxury goods" (ie overpriced branded crap for idiots) market carries French or Italian logos, and the loopy prices idiots pay for "legitimate" products goes into the pockets of French and Italian companies.
Who, sadly, can pay for better lobbyists than the poor Somalis and Nigerians who are trying to make a living selling value for money products on the streets
Nov 2nd, 2007, 08:50 AM
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And one other thing I want to say about this: I can go into one of my local malls, where there is an Asian seller of luggage, nice luggage, who also sells handbags, nice leather handbags, made in Italy, but he also has some that says "Prada" on it, and look like my real Prada bags-and I pick them up, and say, "hey, this isn't Prada, now is it? No, it isn't-and he laughs. And I can walk out on the streets of the city and see the exact same kind of immigrants in their kiosks set up all over the streets of downtown, in large cities across this country, really, and see THE VERY SAME FAKE BAGS as in Italy,-except, no one is going after them, are they? Yes, they are legally licensed vendors in this country with their kiosks, but they are selling fake Diors and Pradas as well, AND NO ONE IS SAYING A WORD TO THEM.
Nov 2nd, 2007, 08:52 AM
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I know we've lowered the bar quite a bit in an attempt to spread the warm fuzzies, but I'm just not ready to make "poverty" an excuse to break the law. Seller OR buyer. Lots of "poor" are working real jobs all over Europe and US. Some however are just misfits and find these kind of "jobs" much easier and more fun. I did read Camp of the Saints, so I'm not really surprised.
Nov 2nd, 2007, 08:57 AM
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What some people here seem to be forgetting is, like it or not and agree or not, this is <b>Venice</V> and the Venetians have been trading, and stealing, for centuries and that could very well account for some of the attitude and outlook.</b>
Nov 2nd, 2007, 09:00 AM
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You know, I cannot more strongly disagree with some posters here.
Who is it hurting? It ends up trickling down to hurt everyone. Just because you think it is a petty law (copyright infringement) doesn't make it any less illegal. Gucci may have lots of money, but it's money he earned from building up his fashion business. I don't buy that stuff, because I think it is ridiculous to pay more than 50 bucks for a purse (and it would have to be a very nice leather one for that). BUT, I firmly believe in Mr. Gucci's right to copyright his work and to have the police enforce the law that makes selling "fake copies" illegal.
There are not degrees of illegal. And I don't support crime in any sense of the word, whether it is illegally selling "knockoff" handbags or committing rape.
These are the exact lessons that people are talking about having to teach their children. Exactly where do you draw the line? It's ok to break some laws, but not others?
Precisely what is wrong with today's parenting, IMHO.
In this case, I would not have intervened. But it's not because I support the illegal purse-sellers. It's because one should not interject themselves into a police situation of which they have no personal knowledge. It could be dangerous. To support my position, I would just not buy from these vendors.
Who is it hurting? It ends up trickling down to hurt everyone. Just because you think it is a petty law (copyright infringement) doesn't make it any less illegal. Gucci may have lots of money, but it's money he earned from building up his fashion business. I don't buy that stuff, because I think it is ridiculous to pay more than 50 bucks for a purse (and it would have to be a very nice leather one for that). BUT, I firmly believe in Mr. Gucci's right to copyright his work and to have the police enforce the law that makes selling "fake copies" illegal.
There are not degrees of illegal. And I don't support crime in any sense of the word, whether it is illegally selling "knockoff" handbags or committing rape.
These are the exact lessons that people are talking about having to teach their children. Exactly where do you draw the line? It's ok to break some laws, but not others?
Precisely what is wrong with today's parenting, IMHO.
In this case, I would not have intervened. But it's not because I support the illegal purse-sellers. It's because one should not interject themselves into a police situation of which they have no personal knowledge. It could be dangerous. To support my position, I would just not buy from these vendors.
