ancestralvoices

Hello,
I was given 2 round trip tickets from Cincinnati to Heathrow for July of 2011.

Depart Sat(Cincinnati) July 2nd and arrive Sunday(Heathrow) at noon. Return Sat July 23rd.

There are too many places I want to visit in 3 weeks and I am hoping to get some suggestions on where to not go on my list of regions to see, so here is my wish list and hopefully someone can help with tightening up this itinerary!

July 3rd(Sunday)---take train or shuttle to London for the day and night(jet lag, tired, etc) and then rent a car the next day or just get the car that Sunday and embark?

July 4th and 5th(Mon and Tues)---drive to North Devon and see Lynton/Lynmouth, Clovelly, Exmoor, coastal paths. See Wells Cathedral and Vicars Close on the way?

July 6th, 7th, 8th(Wed, Thurs, Fri)---drive to Cotswolds for 3 nights, visit Malverns and Elgar country as well.

July 9th and 10th(Sat and Sun)--Ludlow and Chester. Shropshire Hills. Wenlock Edge.

July 11th and 12th(Mon and Tues)---drive to Lake District.

July 13th and 14th(Wed and Thurs)--Peak District

July 15th, 16th, and 17th(Fri, Sat, Sun) --York, Dales, Moors, Whitby/Robin Hood's Bay

July 18th, 19th(Mon and Tues) -- drive down to either Lavenham or Rye. Downs, etc.

July 20th, 21rst, 22nd(Wed, Thurs, Fri)---London. I have Hotel reservations already paid for on the 21rst and 22nd in London. The flight and these two nights are a wonderful gift from my students(piano) for years of teaching so I must save for the rest of this trip. Return home Sat the 23rd.

If there is a better order or itinerary to see some of these places please let me know. I do not mind driving anywhere, but if there are train transport suggestions for part of this 3 weeks I will look into it as well.

I want to make certain I don't crowd too much into this 3 weeks and am asking for your opinions on this matter.

Thanks,

Laurence

janisj

What a wonderful gift! You must be very special to them.

That is a very ambitious itinerary - hitting a lot of REALLY great places. Before I suggest where to cut (I fear you will need to cut something) which are the absolute "musts"?

To give you an idea --York to Rye is a 6-7 hour drive w/o stops. York to Lavenham is about 5 hours. And London to Lynmouth is approx 5 hours.

I'd maybe consider staying that first night in Windsor instead of London. Windsor is only 7 miles from LHR. You could pick up the car and drive less than 15 minutes to your hotel, relax and recover and see the castle/Eton. Next morning bright and early head out - its maybe 4 hours to North Devon.

Have you been to London before? I might cut one of your destinations in favor of adding a night or 2 to London. Especially if you want to see some of the major sites and concerts/theatre etc.

alanRow

Apart from the obvious - DON'T DRIVE WHEN YOU ARRIVE - I'm confused as to what to say about this itinerary. It seems like something dreamt up by a committee to satisfy everybody - but which won't.

I'd be tempted to start in Oxford which is a bus ride from Heathrow then do the Cotswolds leg. I wouldn't bother with the trip down to Devon as it's a whole day drive each way. I'm not too fussed with the trip to Rye either. I think those 4 days could be used in a more satisfying way.

I'd move the Peak District to BEFORE the Lakes as the eastern edge of the Lakes merges into the Yorkshire Dales or even drop it totally - in your plan you'd spend most of a day travelling over ground you've already done then travelling back north before travelling south again.

I'd also be tempted to end the driving portion of your trip in York and take the train to London.

janisj

all of what alanRow says -- and more

But before we really start to gut/rearrange/suggest - which are the "Must See"/non-negotiable bits?

WWanderer

I agree that a bus to Oxford and the night there before you rent your car would be a great idea. I presume National Express still does this very efficiently. Then you won't have to navigate your car out of London. You could arrange to drop your car off at Heathrow perhaps, then take public transport into the city for your last few days in London. You certainly don't want to drive a car into the centre of London if you can avoid it.

It's tough to critique this itinerary without knowing a bit about your likes and dislikes--what do you intend to spend your time doing in those areas? Driving around admiring the view? Hiking, walking, museums, pubs, what?

ancestralvoices

Thank you, all for your responses. I'll try to answer some questions.

Yes, I have been to London before but my travel companion has not. I thought that spending that first day there might be a good start and then the last 3 nights of the trip to give us a total of 4 nights.

Rye and Lavenham are at the bottom of the must see list.

Cotswolds are a must. I was in Snowshill and Chipping Campden 15 years ago and want to spend more time in that region hiking(rambling) and village hopping. Elgar and the Malverns are also tops on the list and I believe they can be incorporated into that 3 night Cotswolds stay.

The Lake District and Yorkshire Dales + coast are also musts for me. I would feel cheated if I didn't spend time in at least one coastal area.

I like landscapes, walking, historic churches and houses, and observing village life in other countries.

and No, there was no committee who dreamt this itinerary up for me. These are the places I have really wanted to see. Alanrow, I will definitely follow your suggestion about switching the order of Peak and Lake Districts and take a train from York back to London. Does it cost any more to drop a car off at a separate location from the one in which I picked it up to begin with?

So in essence, it would be best to cut out the North Devon part of this trip? The rest seems ok? 3 nights in Cotswolds, 2 in Shropshire, 2 in Peaks, 2 in Lakes, 3 in Yorkshire, 4 in London. Seems as though there are 4 nights left which kind of makes me wonder why not Devon? and I thought it was 4 hours to Lynton rather than a full days drive? Must have misread something.

and trust me if I had more time I would see the Cheviot Hills, New Forest, Holy Island, North and South Downs, Blackdown and Quantock Hills, Cambridge, well...on and on and on. If only time and money allowed...

Thanks again,

Laurence

Sassafrass

Skipping Bath completely? Just curious?

ron

Like some of the others, I too am perplexed by this itinerary. It seems like a scavenger hunt of scenic spots in England, going to places with no other purpose than to say you have been.

To use the Lake District as an example, I can see spending a number of days there, as I have done three times, doing some walking or fell running, perhaps a couple of museums, photographing the bluebells in Spring, whatever. Or, if I was doing a Pre-Raphaelite art tour of England, I could imagine that going for a day to see the Ruskin house/museum at Coniston would be a must. But just to do a lot of driving to spend a day there looking at some lakes and hills doesn't seem very pointful.

I guess if I lived in Cincinnati and I wanted to see scenery, I'd head down into Kentucky and Tennessee, spending my time in Appalachia. And if I was going to England, I would be concentrating in the historical things - Hadrian's Wall, Durham, York, Chester, with the scenery in the background. And if I also wanted to get into the scenery, I would set aside 5 days or so and walk the coastal path from Minehead to Lynmouth and beyond, or do day walks from Keswick to various places in the Lakes, or any number of other places.

Anyway, my view is you should do less driving and spend more time seeing and doing things.

ancestralvoices

Sassafrass,

I have seen beautiful Bath once before and truly enjoyed it. Maybe I could drive there the day of arrival and that would put us very near the Cotswolds for the next few days.

ancestralvoices

"Going to places with no other purpose than to say I have been?". No, that is a completely incorrect assumption on your part, Ron. I do not travel with that motto in mind. I am more interested in walking the Malvern Hills where Elgar walked, lived, and composed. Or experiencing Wenlock Edge the way A. E. Housman did, and Butterworth and Vaughan Williams. There are many different ways that we can enjoy our personal favorite parts of history--- and being, sensing, and wandering through the pastoral haunts of my favorite composers and poets is one of the ways I intend to enjoy my holiday. Quite obviously I have many historical sights to see within these regions, which is why I am planning from such an early stage.

Please remember my original post was to give a 'sample itinerary' with the hopes of receiving feedback on what to pair down, if anything. I suppose I was hoping for encouraging 'trimming' of my itinerary. Negativity is not particularly expected, or needed.

In regards to the scenery, it was more beautiful than anything in Appalachia, at least to me, 15 years ago, and well worth repeat viewing. I am speaking of the gently undulating central England landscapes. The walking was the highlight of my previous trip, following old footpaths, pastures, meadows, ---- this was heaven for me.


So am I to understand that some of you believe that, for instance, 3 nights in the Cotswolds is not enough time? 3 nights in Yorkshire not enough time? How odd that in other forums I see people saying that the Cotswolds is worth a day or two and Chester a day or two?

Thanks again for your responses.

L

ancestralvoices

I just consulted my, dare I say it on a Fodors forum, Rick Steve's travel guide to Great Britain, and his 3 week itinerary suggestion is as follows: 3 days-Bath, 2 days-Cotswolds, 3 days-Ironbridge Gorge/North Wales, 1 day Liverpool, 2 days-Lake District, 1 day drive up coast of Scotland, 3 days-Edinburgh then Highlands, 1 day-Hadrian's Wall, 2 days-York, 3 days-London.

Somehow that itinerary seems much more "drive time wasted" than my own 'fantasy' itinerary that I want to condense even further. Actually, his itinerary seems more like a trip one would take to say they had "been there". Many people have followed his expert advice and seem very happy with it, though. Is there something I'm not seeing about my own plans that makes it seem like too much? What I don't like about his books is that they seem to skim the surface. The West Country isn't even mentioned, nor is Oxford.

I do have to say that when my students' parents asked me what parts of England I'd be visiting, I mentioned Chester and Ludlow, to deaf ears! I then added Shrewsbury as a possibility, and the reaction was similar. Wells Cathedral and the Vicars Close? Forget it! My point is that if I were to take a trip and go places JUST so that I could say I had been there, then Shropshire, Cheshire, Malverns, Snowshill, Lynton, and Wells would not be on my list.

Thanks again,

Laurence

janisj

OK - first of all ditch the Rick Steves guidebook/suggestions. He is wonderful for some destinations, OK for some places -- and absolutely dreadful for the UK. (I've met him a couple of times ages ago at the local PBS station pledge break and he says the UK is one of his least favorite countries in Europe -- and much of his advice only proves it)

"<i>Does it cost any more to drop a car off at a separate location from the one in which I picked it up to begin with?</i>"

Not usually

"<i>Maybe I could drive there the day of arrival </i>"

Absolutely not! I would not plan on driving at all the first day. My suggestion to drive 7 miles to Windsor is about it as far as you should even consider driving after an over night flight. If you drive impaired (like jetlagged) and have an accident, it is considered as serious as DUI.

"<i>Seems as though there are 4 nights left which kind of makes me wonder why not Devon?</i>"

No you don't have 4 free days really. You don't account for travel times -- so your 2 days in the Lake District is 1.5 days figuring for the time to get there and get out again. And when you deduct the check in/check out, pack/unpack it ends up even less free time.

So I'd take your 4 'extra' days and add a night to the Cotswolds (if you want to include Bath and/or Wells), a night to the Lakes, a night to Yorkshire and a night to London.

"<i> . . and I thought it was 4 hours to Lynton rather than a full days drive? Must have misread something.</i>"

Nope, you probably didn't mis-read anything -- but all the mileage calculators -- you need to add 20% - 40% to the drive times to account for the narrow roads/country traffic (like getting stuck behind tractors or a flock of sheep in the road. On rural roads you want to figure 30-40 MPH and on motorways about 50-ish on some of the more congested segments.

alanRow

"I presume National Express still does this very efficiently. "

Oxfordbus actually - http://www.oxfordbus.co.uk/main.php?page_id=24

ssachida

>>The rest seems ok? 3 nights in Cotswolds, 2 in Shropshire, 2 in Peaks, 2 in Lakes, 3 in Yorkshire, 4 in London.

I'd suggest using the remaining 4 days to add 2 days to Yorkshire and either 2 days to the lake district, or a day each to the peak and lake districts.

It is a lovely itinerary with a nice mix of rural, urban, historic and scenic sites.
Some suggestions. It may be that you already know this, but I thought them worth mentioning anyway:

. I agree with other about spending your 1st day in Windsor. Oxford might have been nicer but you only get to the airport at noon and you wont be able to see much of Oxford that day. If you intend to visit Oxford anyway, tan it's a great 1st night stay.

. If you like walking, do make use of the buses, don't feel you have to walk back to your car. Lots of routes are ideally suited to walking one way and getting the bus back.

. In each of your regions, try to pick 1 base place to stay (with the exception of yorkshire, if you do spend 5 days there). I like to spend 1 full day at the base and then take trips from there for the other 1 or 2 days.

I'm sure you'll have great trip. Have fun!

ancestralvoices

Ok terrific advice! Thank you all so very very much!

Janisj---That's very discouraging news regarding Rick Steves. It does, however, explain why his book covers so little. Incidentally---I read this list of guide books from cover to cover:
Fodors-England
DK-Britain
Insight-Britain
Rick Steves-Britain

Fodors was far FAR superior in content and information and places reviewed. DK was a nice second.

"""So I'd take your 4 'extra' days and add a night to the Cotswolds (if you want to include Bath and/or Wells), a night to the Lakes, a night to Yorkshire and a night to London."""

This is great advice. ...and by the way---getting stuck in the road due to a flock of sheep sounds a bit wonderful to me!

Ssachida--thank you for the suggestion about walking and using buses for return. Now I just need to figure out which places to add the days on to. Probably Yorkshire as there will be a lot of walking and many places I want to see, plus I know it is a large area. I had planned on picking a base place to stay and then venturing out from there.

Now for a last question which I hope does not cause arguments but it is an honest inquiry:

I have never been to either Yorkshire or Devon.(2 places which I'm torn about deciding between). I've wanted to visit both places in my dreams for similar reasons. When I read about them I picture rolling, green countryside and beautiful coastal villages. The descriptions of Clovelly actually appear similar to Robin Hood's Bay with steep street descending down to the harbor. Exmoor/North York Moors. Very similar in what I'm looking for but I'm certain both are very different in character. I'm leaning more towards Yorkshire due to proximity to other places and because I want to see York. Would you agree with this? Are the coastal walks better in one place vs another or just so different they can't(and probably shouldn't) be compared? Quantock-Blackdown/Howardian-Cleveland Hills. Maybe one or two of you have a particular reason to like or dislike one or the other. Some forums seem to have strong opposing opinions on Clovelly, for instance.

This limit in time causes me to weigh my options and in all probability they are all wonderful and worth visiting---giving me reason to plan for a return in a few years.

This excitement is KILLING me!!!!!!!!

Thank you all so much for your help and advice! and if you have the time and want to throw in a Bed and Breakfast recommendation or a particular sight to see please feel free to do so. If not, no worries at all as you have all been extremely helpful and kind in taking the time to assist me. I feel like a child who's been given a new toy!

Laurence

Morgana

'Yorkshire' covers a huge swathe of Northern England as I think you've already established. I am lucky enough to live in North Yorkshire which tends to be the tourist destination, although West Yorkshire is 'Bronte country'.
North Yorkshire has two stunningly beautiful National Parks - the Dales and the North Yorkshire Moors. As well as being fantastic areas to walk in (we walk in the Dales most weekends as that's where we live) they have many other attractions - stately homes, abbeys, museums etc. There's enough to do in the area to keep you going for weeks, so you'll need to be ruthless as to what you want to see if you decide on Yorkshire.
The Dales are landlocked and are a fair drive to the coast, whereas the Moors go right down to the east coast.
I often get asked what is a good place to stay in Yorkshire to tour the area and it's a tough one because of the size of the county, but York itself is a good a place as any.
I've drawn up a North yorkshire itinerary below as perhaps a starting point for more research? The days aren't in any particular order.
Day 1 - York itself. Compact city, no need for a car. Must sees would be the Minster, Shambles, walk the walls, National Railway Museum (free entry)
Day 2 - Yorkshire Dales. Huge area but this link is an excellent road trip which you could pick up at a suitable point.
http://www.skiptonweb.co.uk/tourist/...rive/index.htm
Day 3 - Pickering, North Yorks Moors Railway, Whitby, Robin Hood's Bay
www.nymr.co.uk
Day 4 - Castle Howard, Rievaulx and/or Byland and a walk on the Moors
www.castlehoward.co.uk
www.walkingenglishman.com/northyorkshire.htm
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/d...rievaulx-abbey
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/d...s/byland-abbey
Any spare time - Fountains Abbey and Studley Royal
www.fountainsabbey.org.uk
One final point - you are travelling in July which means long days as it doesn't get dark until pretty late. So, you'll be able to fit loads in, perhaps visiting the places with fixed admission times during the day, and then walks or sight seeing going on into the evening.

Mimar

You can drop the car in York and take the train back to London. Buy your train tickets early, makes for a considerable savings.

I'm not sure if it will work out for you, given your interests, but look into the Great British Heritage Pass: www.britishheritagepass.com. For one price, you get admission to all National Trust and English Heritage properties -- like Fountains Abbey and Castle Howard.

It's hard to reccommend B&Bs without knowing your nightly budget. I use www.smoothhound.com and www.theaa.com for B&Bs. We really liked the small town of Richmond in Yorkshire, both in itself and as as a base, and loved the B&B we stayed at there, Millgate House.

janisj

Re which is better Devon or Yorkshire. Sort of like which is better Yosemite or Yellowstone? No good answer. I've rented cottages for a week several times in both counties (though more frequently in S Devon instead of the north side)

Both have amazing scenery and some of what you compare is true (Clovelly vs RHBay etc.) But if you want a combination of country/walking AND sites/city-- then I'd probably choose Yorkshire. York is amazing (and if time is limited to only one, I'd choose visiting York over Bath even though both are absolutely wonderful. The Roman Baths are definitely special -- but Yorkminster, the Shambles, the Castle museum, city wall make York a showstopper)

Then there is Caslte Howard, Fountains Abbey, the moors/Whitby, Dales etc.

So you'd love either area, but Yorkshire maybe just a tad more. But you'd also want more than 2 days there . . .

texasbookworm

How FUN to get to plan! You are doing what I did last fall, basically, except we only had 13 days (for our third trip, second one together, to the UK). We flew in and out of London because we did find car-rental drop off to be a little more. We spent the first part of the trip in London, which worked GREAT for us, getting over jet-lag before beginning driving. So when we did begin driving we only had 9 days whereas you will have many more to "play" with. But I will give the link to our (long) trip report if you'd like to see what and how we did it. And our B&B's are there and you can see if any are where you will be, as I'd recommend all (except the one in Durham).

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-and-wales.cfm

I am a big believer in the fact that each person's trip is an individual adventure and you have time to tailor it to your specific needs and desires. So don't let anyone deter you.

However, sift through the advice here as it is generally spot on and excellent and I could never have planned trips without it.

My "advice"--Finish your itinerary really soon and book B&B's now.
Oh, and stay in B&B's. Very cool.
Really consider starting in London--get a car service to centrally located rooms, stay a few days, car service back to LHR for car rental, return car to LHR and stay near airport upon leaving. I really liked this plan and would recommend some version of it.
Favorite places outside of London--Oxford! Hadrian's Wall! Wales! (not nearly enough time there) York! Chatsworth! Dover!
And the Great Britain Heritage Pass was a great purchase.
We knew we would have some longish days in the car and I generally added 25-50% to time estimated by like Googlemaps when planning days--and that was generally true. We were never seriously delayed by traffic, construction, accidents, or weather, but driving in the UK in the summer was definitely not fast. Allow PLENTY of time when trying to get from Point A to Point B if you want to have anytime before things close to see stuff in Point B (and things close early!).

ancestralvoices

Wow! Am just thrilled at the responses here.

Morgana---I have read through many of your informative posts on these forums and you are truly a wealth of information. Thank you for the sample itinerary of Yorkshire, and for helping so many people. I have definitely decided on 4 days in Yorkshire for many reasons.

Mimar---thanks for the reminder about the British Heritage Pass. It will come in handy as there are so many historic places I want to visit.

Janisj----thanks for responding to a question that I probably shouldn't have asked. No one place is 'better' than another. I am choosing Yorkshire because of the Dales/Moors, RHB and coast, York and her Minster and Shambles and Betty's and Wall and Museums and hauntings, and because my Great Grandparents came over from East Riding(know of any Bennett's in that area?). I will save the West Country for another visit, as I believe Devon, Cornwall, and Somerset would make for a wonderful holiday on their own.

texasbookworm----thanks a bunch for you encouraging and optimistic words. It's really nice to hear someone who shares my enthusiasm and tries to be helpful without the self important barbs thrown in for no reason other than to make a stranger feel less than informed. I will peruse through your trip report as soon as I have finished typing this. I will strongly consider changing London to the beginning of the journey rather than the end. This advice was gotten from Rick Steve's book. Ultimately, I will make and choose my own destinations.

I cannot stress enough to everyone how grateful I am for all of your opinions, suggestions, and even the one or two negatives that I unexpectedly received. All done on your own time.

Thanks again

Laurence