Don't kill me - 88 days in Paris Airbnb?
Sep 4th, 2015, 07:15 AM
#42
"Of course not ALL tourists are like this, but the ones we see most of the time sure are."
Herein lies the weakness of the premise, making assumptions about all tourists from observations of the ones that stand out. I have no doubt there are more who blend in than a casual observer might conclude, the ones you don't notice "most of the time".
Herein lies the weakness of the premise, making assumptions about all tourists from observations of the ones that stand out. I have no doubt there are more who blend in than a casual observer might conclude, the ones you don't notice "most of the time".
Sep 4th, 2015, 07:15 AM
#43
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Here is a link to a Tripadvisor post that mentions an apartment in Paris suddenly unavailable due to water damage:
http://www.tripadvisor.co.nz/ShowTop...de_France.html
It's a bit old, but TripAdvisor has a terrible search algorithm that either takes into account keywords, with no regard to time; or to time, with no regard to keywords. From the comments you can see that it's a known phenomenon.
Safety is a big concern with under-the-table apartment rentals. I'm more familiar with the situation in Rome, but I'm sure the same principles hold in Paris. People carve out a rental space in a dwelling with no regard to building regulations. They often have non-standard plumbing, insufficient square meters, and inadequate ventilation. They're self-selected for ignoring the rules, as they've already decided they won't report the income or pay any taxes. In Rome, they're often rented illegally to students during the university term and to tourists in the summer.
I have rented apartments in Rome in the past, and probably will in the future, but I do my best to find apartments that are registered as such. Even then, I've found egregious safety violations in some apartments.
http://www.tripadvisor.co.nz/ShowTop...de_France.html
It's a bit old, but TripAdvisor has a terrible search algorithm that either takes into account keywords, with no regard to time; or to time, with no regard to keywords. From the comments you can see that it's a known phenomenon.
Safety is a big concern with under-the-table apartment rentals. I'm more familiar with the situation in Rome, but I'm sure the same principles hold in Paris. People carve out a rental space in a dwelling with no regard to building regulations. They often have non-standard plumbing, insufficient square meters, and inadequate ventilation. They're self-selected for ignoring the rules, as they've already decided they won't report the income or pay any taxes. In Rome, they're often rented illegally to students during the university term and to tourists in the summer.
I have rented apartments in Rome in the past, and probably will in the future, but I do my best to find apartments that are registered as such. Even then, I've found egregious safety violations in some apartments.
Sep 4th, 2015, 07:16 AM
#44
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Sorry Manouche, I thought the quote came from Kerouac, for whatever reasons.
I liked your post pretty much actually !!
I actually liked your rant too. Good to see I'm not the only one to blow a fuse on forums...
It's 5 pm here so a little more to wait and it will be wine o'clock. I'll have a glass of good red burgundy on your health !
I liked your post pretty much actually !!
I actually liked your rant too. Good to see I'm not the only one to blow a fuse on forums...
It's 5 pm here so a little more to wait and it will be wine o'clock. I'll have a glass of good red burgundy on your health !
Sep 4th, 2015, 07:17 AM
#45
Interesting the perception of why tourists stay in apartments. We prefer apts in most places we travel. It doesn't necessarily save money and I have no illusions that I am living like a local whether it's Rome, Bangkok, Toronto, Buenos Aires or anywhere else. We simply prefer the additional space we are afforded by staying in apartments. We tend to stay a week or longer and having extra space is very nice. We enjoy having our coffee and breakfast (yes, sometimes its pastries!) sitting quietly in our apt. Occassionally we will eat in for lunch or dinner. Also there is frequently a washer dryer that we can conveniently use while stayiing in an apt. I guess those are money savers.
I appreciate the current information provided on the apt rental situation in Paris. I don't appreciate the generalizations about tourists. I live in a city with a ton of tourists and yes, they are can be different than locals, but who cares?
I appreciate the current information provided on the apt rental situation in Paris. I don't appreciate the generalizations about tourists. I live in a city with a ton of tourists and yes, they are can be different than locals, but who cares?
Sep 4th, 2015, 07:39 AM
#47
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Well for us it doesn't change much to be in hotels or appts regarding laundry...
My wife lets me carry hundreds of kgms of clothes : clean on the way in, dirty on the way out...
The problem we start having in appts is that we need several bedrooms and it is sometimes easier to just get several rooms in a hotel. And the kids have then more privacy.
As for breakfast, I really do agree that breakfasts in appts are much funnier than in hotels. (and a lot less expensive). Was in a nice hotel yesterday, room tariff was down from 300 to 124 € but breakfast was 17 € !!!!
My wife lets me carry hundreds of kgms of clothes : clean on the way in, dirty on the way out...
The problem we start having in appts is that we need several bedrooms and it is sometimes easier to just get several rooms in a hotel. And the kids have then more privacy.
As for breakfast, I really do agree that breakfasts in appts are much funnier than in hotels. (and a lot less expensive). Was in a nice hotel yesterday, room tariff was down from 300 to 124 € but breakfast was 17 € !!!!
Sep 4th, 2015, 07:58 AM
#48
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I asked for the first rant to be removed as a duplicate, since I did not mean to single out Akis - whose trip reports we enjoyed very much, and which prove that he/she/they are not the type of people I was referring to.
Nitpicking - "making assumptions about MOST tourists" - again, these are the people WE SEE. If you don't see them, that's your experience. Glad you don't have the same problem. Whoop de doo.
I had to look up "derisive" - seems the person using that word embodies it, too.
The pastry-people we see literally tear into their bags the minute they get out of the store and go into screaming spasms while cramming things into their mouths and taking selfies. There are an awful lot of them - age and sex don't seem to matter - and they are not hard to find because you can hear them a block away. You would think these people never had food in their mouths before.
But I did not mean for these rants to take away from the intent of my other post, which concerned the lack of safety in Parisian rental apartments, and which is one of the major driving forces behind the Mayor's crackdown on illegal rentals. I just can't understand why anyone would put more emphasis on the penny-pinching pastry-eating more-personal-space lifestyle than on personal safety.
Imagine this - an over-ripe Camembert crossed with a Swiss cheese. This is what amounts to the foundation underneath most of Paris' buildings, except for those built after about 1960. (If you want a glimpse of what lies underneath, you should visit the Catacombes, but realize that the part you can see has been shored up to meet public safety standards.) Now add plumbing and gas lines that haven't been renovated for decades - and which constantly leak, due to the "motion of the cheese ocean" - and you have a recipe for trouble. Add too many appliances plugged into antiquated wiring systems and you have more of the same. Finally, add property owners who cannot or willnot pay to upgrade their buildings. Perhaps Malraux was wrong, and the Marais and other parts of the city should have been bulldozed before a disaster occurs.
Older hotels are mostly constructed on the same "cheesey" foundations, but they are subjected to yearly safety inspections and will be closed if they are in violation. The person referring to the situation in Rome was correct - the same exists in Paris.
Nitpicking - "making assumptions about MOST tourists" - again, these are the people WE SEE. If you don't see them, that's your experience. Glad you don't have the same problem. Whoop de doo.
I had to look up "derisive" - seems the person using that word embodies it, too.
The pastry-people we see literally tear into their bags the minute they get out of the store and go into screaming spasms while cramming things into their mouths and taking selfies. There are an awful lot of them - age and sex don't seem to matter - and they are not hard to find because you can hear them a block away. You would think these people never had food in their mouths before.
But I did not mean for these rants to take away from the intent of my other post, which concerned the lack of safety in Parisian rental apartments, and which is one of the major driving forces behind the Mayor's crackdown on illegal rentals. I just can't understand why anyone would put more emphasis on the penny-pinching pastry-eating more-personal-space lifestyle than on personal safety.
Imagine this - an over-ripe Camembert crossed with a Swiss cheese. This is what amounts to the foundation underneath most of Paris' buildings, except for those built after about 1960. (If you want a glimpse of what lies underneath, you should visit the Catacombes, but realize that the part you can see has been shored up to meet public safety standards.) Now add plumbing and gas lines that haven't been renovated for decades - and which constantly leak, due to the "motion of the cheese ocean" - and you have a recipe for trouble. Add too many appliances plugged into antiquated wiring systems and you have more of the same. Finally, add property owners who cannot or willnot pay to upgrade their buildings. Perhaps Malraux was wrong, and the Marais and other parts of the city should have been bulldozed before a disaster occurs.
Older hotels are mostly constructed on the same "cheesey" foundations, but they are subjected to yearly safety inspections and will be closed if they are in violation. The person referring to the situation in Rome was correct - the same exists in Paris.
Sep 4th, 2015, 08:26 AM
#49
"The pastry-people we see literally tear into their bags...blah, blah"
Anything "Paris" here seems to coax the ranters out of the woodwork (or the cheesy foundations?) Much better an intelligent curmudgeon than this blather.
Anything "Paris" here seems to coax the ranters out of the woodwork (or the cheesy foundations?) Much better an intelligent curmudgeon than this blather.
Sep 4th, 2015, 09:43 AM
#50
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MmePerdu - if in fact you are "Madame" - since you are so interested in everything being "intelligent" and presumably correct on this forum, you should add an "e" on the end of your name. I'm not sure you qualify for the "intelligent" part, but you've certainly got the "curmudgeon" part down. Not sure you would stand ANY negative talk about Paris, though - by the way, have you been here, lately?
Criticizing "ranters out of the ...whatever" only draws attention away from the subject at hand. These travel forums really stink of red herrings. Which of course is probably your - and other people's - intention all along. Nobody likes to lose money, especially people who own and/or benefit from friends who have rental apartments in Paris.
Personally, I hope the OP heeds the advice of someone who is currently renting long-term like F1 instead of the "arrivistes" who only rent occasionally or who own rentals and just sweep away any worries with a wave of their hand. It is important to take the safety issues under consideration - especially when choosing which floor and which section of the building to stay in - since the studios on the top floors are usually much cheaper, and the rentals overlooking a courtyard (but with only one street exit) might be quieter, but both are very dangerous in the event of fire.
Criticizing "ranters out of the ...whatever" only draws attention away from the subject at hand. These travel forums really stink of red herrings. Which of course is probably your - and other people's - intention all along. Nobody likes to lose money, especially people who own and/or benefit from friends who have rental apartments in Paris.
Personally, I hope the OP heeds the advice of someone who is currently renting long-term like F1 instead of the "arrivistes" who only rent occasionally or who own rentals and just sweep away any worries with a wave of their hand. It is important to take the safety issues under consideration - especially when choosing which floor and which section of the building to stay in - since the studios on the top floors are usually much cheaper, and the rentals overlooking a courtyard (but with only one street exit) might be quieter, but both are very dangerous in the event of fire.
Sep 4th, 2015, 11:39 AM
#52
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Obviously you are "interested", since you insist on correcting everyone else. If you were truly not interested, you would not participate on this forum. Nothing to contribute to the actual facts of the conversation? Stand down, then.
Sep 4th, 2015, 03:14 PM
#55
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Interesting thread. I gather from it that it is almost impossible/very difficult to legally rent an apartment in Paris (and possibly the rest of France?). Apartments targeted specifically at tourists are increasingly common in many countries - are these not available either? I mean like Meriton, Quest or Citadines - although I know these are expensive.
I am one of those who prefer to stay in an apartment rather than a hotel if we are visiting for more than a few days, primarily so we can cook for ourselves, and especially when we were travelling with the kids. The challenges in renting an apartment in Paris would put me off a longer stay there. I completely understand the reasons why short term leases to tourists are being actively discouraged but I wouldn't want to stay a month in a hotel. Are there no affordable alternatives for tourists?
I am one of those who prefer to stay in an apartment rather than a hotel if we are visiting for more than a few days, primarily so we can cook for ourselves, and especially when we were travelling with the kids. The challenges in renting an apartment in Paris would put me off a longer stay there. I completely understand the reasons why short term leases to tourists are being actively discouraged but I wouldn't want to stay a month in a hotel. Are there no affordable alternatives for tourists?
Sep 4th, 2015, 11:17 PM
#56
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When I want an apartment, which I do if traveling with a family group or when staying for more than a few days, I now look on www.booking.com where I've found that the apartments are at least operating above the table. They usually allow payment by credit card and they collect the city lodging tax. Again, I'm most familiar with Italy, but here it means they will have had at least a minimal inspection, although they're not held to the safety standards of a hotel.
Sep 5th, 2015, 03:50 AM
#57
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dreamon - depends on what you mean by "affordable".
There are well-known apart'hotels in Paris - Citadines, Adagio, Le Prince Regent, Le Roi de Sicile, The Helzear and others - all of which have front desk staff, kitchenettes and more space than hotel rooms, and usually family rooms and connecting rooms are available. Citadines and Adagio have different comfort levels and different prices which vary according to the neighborhood and often offer internet specials, especially if you book far in advance or will be staying longer than a week. All of these are near good transportation options, supermarkets and anything else you'll need. Are they cute, do they have atmosphere? No - probably not what you have been dreaming of. But the appliances and elevators work, someone is there to give you advice and fix things if they break, rooms are easy to book and they are 100% legal. As soon as you go out the front door, you will be surrounded by all the atmosphere you need.
Apartments can pay to list on any advertising portal, from VRBO, AirBnB, www.booking.com and so forth. Many illegal apartments list themselves as "apart'hotels", but it's very easy to check the amenities list - if there is no mention of a 24 hr reception desk, and if you will be met by someone with a key, chances are very good that it is not a legal apart'hotel. Don't be fooled by the bathrobes and welcoming bottle of champagne, either.
Travel is changing, and old cities like Paris are finding it difficult to keep up with the demands of both the number and the requirements of modern tourists. Enterprising people saw the need and filled it with illegal short-term rentals, bypassing laws and changing whole neighborhoods in the process. The same could be said for Uber, AirBnB or any other "social sharing" networks that provide services for people who demand them, but who either don't realize or don't care about the consequences such as no insurance, no safety regulations, no taxes and no accountability. Apparently, this is a brand-new economic and moral dilemma that the whole world has to face.
Most hotels in Paris installed en suite bathrooms only fairly recently (around 40 years ago or so IIRC), so rooms are much smaller than they used to be and people complain about that. But tourists and modern times demanded it, so it was done. People used to travel to get away from laundry, grocery shopping, cooking and cleaning - but it is highly doubtful that hotels could or would renovate their rooms further to accommodate this trend.
A great number of hotels in Paris do have minibars or mini refrigerators, and a client may ask for these to be emptied during their stay. Most places will even freeze items, if you need this done. Many hotels offer free in-room coffee/tea supplies. The alternative would be to bring a travel coffeepot, etc with you, which doesn't take a lot of luggage space. Anyone who's used a French washer/dryer can tell you that it's usually not worth the trouble spending hours to do laundry in an apartment. The alternative is to use one of the many efficient, inexpensive coin laundries, or wash out a few things by hand when needed.
When we travel, it's hotels all the way, unless we can afford to rent a house in the country for a month. We eat out during the day when it's cheaper, and enjoy wine/cheese/pate/etc in our hotel room, in the comfort of our pyjamas, watching TV. We don't need much space, because we are always out and about except to shower and sleep. My wife likes a croissant sometimes, so she goes to a bakery while I make the coffee with our little travel pot. The best part is coming back during the day to take a nap in a clean room with the bed made up. At the end of our stay, there's no frantic cleaning, no worries about deposits or anything but paying the bill and going home. I think many first-timers who have never tried hotels in Paris have been frightened away by too many people pushing the idea of apartments and "living like a local".
There are well-known apart'hotels in Paris - Citadines, Adagio, Le Prince Regent, Le Roi de Sicile, The Helzear and others - all of which have front desk staff, kitchenettes and more space than hotel rooms, and usually family rooms and connecting rooms are available. Citadines and Adagio have different comfort levels and different prices which vary according to the neighborhood and often offer internet specials, especially if you book far in advance or will be staying longer than a week. All of these are near good transportation options, supermarkets and anything else you'll need. Are they cute, do they have atmosphere? No - probably not what you have been dreaming of. But the appliances and elevators work, someone is there to give you advice and fix things if they break, rooms are easy to book and they are 100% legal. As soon as you go out the front door, you will be surrounded by all the atmosphere you need.
Apartments can pay to list on any advertising portal, from VRBO, AirBnB, www.booking.com and so forth. Many illegal apartments list themselves as "apart'hotels", but it's very easy to check the amenities list - if there is no mention of a 24 hr reception desk, and if you will be met by someone with a key, chances are very good that it is not a legal apart'hotel. Don't be fooled by the bathrobes and welcoming bottle of champagne, either.
Travel is changing, and old cities like Paris are finding it difficult to keep up with the demands of both the number and the requirements of modern tourists. Enterprising people saw the need and filled it with illegal short-term rentals, bypassing laws and changing whole neighborhoods in the process. The same could be said for Uber, AirBnB or any other "social sharing" networks that provide services for people who demand them, but who either don't realize or don't care about the consequences such as no insurance, no safety regulations, no taxes and no accountability. Apparently, this is a brand-new economic and moral dilemma that the whole world has to face.
Most hotels in Paris installed en suite bathrooms only fairly recently (around 40 years ago or so IIRC), so rooms are much smaller than they used to be and people complain about that. But tourists and modern times demanded it, so it was done. People used to travel to get away from laundry, grocery shopping, cooking and cleaning - but it is highly doubtful that hotels could or would renovate their rooms further to accommodate this trend.
A great number of hotels in Paris do have minibars or mini refrigerators, and a client may ask for these to be emptied during their stay. Most places will even freeze items, if you need this done. Many hotels offer free in-room coffee/tea supplies. The alternative would be to bring a travel coffeepot, etc with you, which doesn't take a lot of luggage space. Anyone who's used a French washer/dryer can tell you that it's usually not worth the trouble spending hours to do laundry in an apartment. The alternative is to use one of the many efficient, inexpensive coin laundries, or wash out a few things by hand when needed.
When we travel, it's hotels all the way, unless we can afford to rent a house in the country for a month. We eat out during the day when it's cheaper, and enjoy wine/cheese/pate/etc in our hotel room, in the comfort of our pyjamas, watching TV. We don't need much space, because we are always out and about except to shower and sleep. My wife likes a croissant sometimes, so she goes to a bakery while I make the coffee with our little travel pot. The best part is coming back during the day to take a nap in a clean room with the bed made up. At the end of our stay, there's no frantic cleaning, no worries about deposits or anything but paying the bill and going home. I think many first-timers who have never tried hotels in Paris have been frightened away by too many people pushing the idea of apartments and "living like a local".
Sep 5th, 2015, 03:59 AM
#58
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BTW, what is an 'affordabl' appartment ?
I've never stayed in a Airbnb appt -stayed in Citadines or so called appartments belonging to hotels.
We paid 200 € per night for 5 people, whilst when I sleep in Paris alone I pay on average about 100 € per night.
We feel safer in hotels and we get invoices...
I've never stayed in a Airbnb appt -stayed in Citadines or so called appartments belonging to hotels.
We paid 200 € per night for 5 people, whilst when I sleep in Paris alone I pay on average about 100 € per night.
We feel safer in hotels and we get invoices...
Sep 5th, 2015, 04:42 AM
#59
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manouche, you're right - it is a dilemma. I would far rather stay in an apartment (especially if I'm there for a while) but I wouldn't want to be the indirect cause of property prices rising so high that locals can't afford to live in them and nor do I support people who do not pay the taxes that they ought to. The challenge as a visitor is that you don't know the circumstances of the property or the owner.
Sep 5th, 2015, 04:58 AM
#60
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From Tripadvisor this year:
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic...de_France.html
I tried to relocate a complaining Flipkey review about an apartment in Paris booked but suddenly unavailable this year or last year because of "works", but when I clicked the Google link, the apartment page came up blank -- I assume because that apartment has been pulled from the market.
But my google search turned up this blog with a tale to tell about a booked and confirmed Paris rental, where the tourist got a text message enroute to the apartment from the airport, saying there was a "BIG PROBLEM" with the booked apartment but another would be found. Another was found, and the cancelled apartment's "big problem" was said to be bedbugs, only discovered that morning but requiring 3 weeks of fumigation. Now, who would want to sleep in an apartment with bedbugs? Or someplace just fumigated with poison? No more questions asked.
Was it bedbugs? Never heard of that one before, but sure. Could have been.
http://www.daviddlevine.com/2014/07/paris-days-1-2/
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic...de_France.html
I tried to relocate a complaining Flipkey review about an apartment in Paris booked but suddenly unavailable this year or last year because of "works", but when I clicked the Google link, the apartment page came up blank -- I assume because that apartment has been pulled from the market.
But my google search turned up this blog with a tale to tell about a booked and confirmed Paris rental, where the tourist got a text message enroute to the apartment from the airport, saying there was a "BIG PROBLEM" with the booked apartment but another would be found. Another was found, and the cancelled apartment's "big problem" was said to be bedbugs, only discovered that morning but requiring 3 weeks of fumigation. Now, who would want to sleep in an apartment with bedbugs? Or someplace just fumigated with poison? No more questions asked.
Was it bedbugs? Never heard of that one before, but sure. Could have been.
http://www.daviddlevine.com/2014/07/paris-days-1-2/
