This is a very interesting contribution to the topic, mikelg. I have read about this because I'm studying Spanish now and wonder what happens when people marry (same problem with all the hyphenated names).

The example above about Maria Lopez, for example, doens't work because she is really Maria Lopez Rodrigo, or something. And there is also a custom about the position of the father's surname over mother's which gets back to male dominance if you want that. In fact, if I read the examples from the original post, the mother's surname is dropped for the children, apparently, and the children end up with two male surnames (two grandfathers).

Now mikelg said putting the mnother's name first was an option, but is that done very often? My Spanish book doesn't even say it's an option, just that the father's surname is first.

It isn't domination to take a husband's name, it's just convenient to have one family name, usually. It's no more domination than listing the father's surname first.

I do have a question I'd really like to know -- why is Maria used in men's names? This occurs in Italian, also, I believe, and perhaps French--only I've only seen it as a middle name. Maria or Marie has never been an actual male first name in history that I know of, it is a woman's name. Is this just for Christian religious reasons? I suspect so as those are the examples given.

Yes, Ira, funny as "odd", no hidden message there.

Christina: In fact, most couples don´t alter the order of the surnames, as a common "rule" they keep the traditional order (men´s surname first). But the important thing is that there is the possibility to change this standard order.

No idea why Maria is used for men´s names, it is really funny (meaning both odd and laughable).

In any case, I find it odd that in a society so conscious about proper use of names and political correctness (afroamericans, visually handicapped, and so and so...), looking for equality and fairness (which is very good), nobody has realized that women are kind of "submitted" to the man, losing their identity. Of course I don´t mean physical submission or loss of any rights, of course not, it´s just that I don´t get why that "habit" has never been questioned.

Christina, when people marry it is very simple: both keep their original surnames for everything. For example, bank accounts (both full names of my wife and myself), mortgage, official documents, etc, etc.

Mr Pedro B C marries Mrs Marta E F, after the wedding they will still be Mr Pedro BC and Ms Marta EF. Their kids will be Juan BE or Juan EBJ. C and F are then lost and valid only to track your ancestors.

If hyphenated surnames, it is considered as only one, forever.

Regards,

In Belgium, the origin of names is as mentioned before: son of, from a certain geographic place, crafts and trades.
Kids used to always get their father's name as a surname, unless there was no father recognising the child, then it would take the mother's surname. Now people can choose: father's, mother's, or both, in the order they want.
Women never officially change their name when they get married, though lots of them call themselves with the surname of their husband. So does my mother but I very much doubt if I will ever do so.
What is the strangest for me, is that lots of American women, even after a divorce, keep the name of their ex-husband. I completely don't get why they would do that, except maybe, to show the relationship to their children (I know I had problems looking up phone numbers of class mates who lived with their divorced mother, who was mentioned under her maiden name...)

Interesting discussion. I also get similarly confused with Italians' use of various names after marriage. It seems you must know all the family connections to really be sure who's who! When titles are involved, it gets worse....

As for American practices, I always thought the principal reason for taking the father's surname was to make sure the entire nuclear family had one name. (Perhaps originally for property related reasons?) That it wasn't a matter of individuals, but of "the group" identity. Naturally, as another poster pointed out, in so doing, one had to choose the father's surname or the mother's for such a system; Americans chose the father's. In fact, it usually was the woman who left her family and physically joined the father's family. (Then there are the "vanity" cases, where the man felt his mother's surname was more prestigious, and the first hyphenated names then came into use! This happens in England as well.) Of course, many factors have come in to play in recent years to muddy that system and it now seems less "necessary" than it once did.

Christina, as you mentioned,
I also believe the use of 'Maria' or 'Marie' as a given name for a European man was just a religious bow to Mary.
It was used in Czech culture too--the poet Rilke had Maria as his middle name.
I guess if nuns could take male saints' names, men could take Mary's name too.

And everyone would be merry when Mary marries Mary.

It gets even more interesting in the case of a Spanish surname that is composed of two separate names - meaning that ONE surname consists of TWO names, such as "Gomez Palacios" or "Rodriguez Pena". Names like these are quite common! I actually know somebody whose 2 surnames are both composed names. So his full legal name (imaginary) is something like Juan Rodriguez Pena Perez Conde - and those are only 2 surnames!

Forgot to note that women in Korea also retain their maiden names when they wed. They do not take their husband's family name even though they are transferred from their family register to the register of the husband's family-blood is everything. Otherwise, it has been a male-dominated society to the Nth degree.

And I knew a guy whose full name was:
Pedro Carlos Manuel Atavea de Jesus Barranachea Hernandez.

Way too much to remember!!!

My first post in Fodor´s...I´ve searched for it as I was reading yesterday about the reason why in Spain we use our two surnames as standard.

Well, it seems that it´s due to the Spanish Inquisition (which, btw, was the softest of all the Inquisition Courts in Europe, but the black legend has prevailed). Jews that converted to christianism were better controlled by the Inquisition, as Judaism is matrilineal (mother´s line prevails). So they forced everyone to use the mother´s surname to know if they were of Jew origin. Apparently, there´s a list of 5220 Jew surnames that are still worn by Spaniards.

Apparently, there´s a list of 5220 Jew surnames that are still worn by Spaniards.

Do you know where that list can be accessed?
________
MY FIL who was born in Galicia has a decidedly unusual Spanish name. It can either be Irish or Jewish.
There are a couple of possible reasons for this.
Many conversos went to Galicia, since the Inquisition for whatever reason, did not persecute Jews as much in that area. Or it could be Irish because the Celtic migration passed through Galicia AND when the Spanish Armada lost to the English, many English sailors were Irish. Some Irish sailors, whose ships went down, made it to the Spanish coast and settled there. That aside, those in Spain, ascribe to traditional formation of Spanish names as described by Mikelg in 2005.

Sorry, I came across that info from a news report on a Spanish magazine that did not specify the origin of that info on surnames. There´s a lot of info on the Jews and Spain...but of course they don´t get deep into it. As a philologist, I love this kind of reports, but the origin of surnames is always complicated in Spain. For instance, I´m Basque and with Basque surnames, that have a completely different origin than Spaniard ones. They are based on where my ancestors lived, and are based on nature and living things. Those of celtic origin are mostly Irish...but adapted to Spanish. Really interesting.

Thanks Mike, I will try through Google and others sources. My wife always toys with the idea of dual citizenship.

http://www.ingleshispano.com/apellidos-sefarditas.html

In Spanish and don´t know how accurate, but there´s a list...

mikelg...I love the fact that you followed up on your very first post on Fodor's. Interesting topic too!

About the Spanish names: Is that why the registration at the Renfe site wanted me to give two last names? It really confused me, since I first thought they were asking for two first names and one last name. When I realized they wanted two last names I got even more confused and a bit irritated, since I don't have two last names. I finally used my middle name as one of the two last names.

I guess I could go back and change it on the registration, but that would create another problem, because my mother's last name is NOT part of my legal name and does not appear on my passport.

And the "z" or "ez" ending on Spanish surnames originally was a patronymic: Alvarez was "son of Alvaro" for example.

Thanks, there is a name that is similar to my wife's family and some members in Galicia spell it and pronounce it differently as well.

Thanks again.

jaja, those endings in "ez", meaning "son of", are based on the Basque language, which was much more predominant on those early days...