Credit card with microchip needed?

Old Aug 28th, 2013, 04:45 PM
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It seems to me there's probably some kid wearing a hoody sweatshirt that can figure this out for the American banks. Until then, I'll be prepared for any eventuality.
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Old Aug 29th, 2013, 12:35 AM
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A chip and signature card is of no use in the Netherlands. It must be chip and pin. The same is true for all ticket machines and the like.

Withdrawing money from an ATM, if it is a bank ATM, is free at point of withdrawal. Any charges are from your own bank, not the European bank.

You will find bank ATMs in shops, as well as banks. If it is a private ATM it will tell you there is a charge for using it, and you can cancel before incurring the charge.
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Old Aug 29th, 2013, 03:40 AM
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hetismij2...I am not doubting you cannot tell the difference between a chip and signature card from a chip and pin card until the pos spits out a receipt and flashes a message signature required. Are you telling us that all merchants after a chip and signature card spits out a receipt goes through the procedure of voiding the transaction? It would seem to me, having basically completed the sale, most merchants (and I'm not criticizing or questioning you) will simply go through with the sale (and judging by what I read on this board and others, many Americans do not know the difference between a chip and signature card and a chip and pin card as I read all the time people with say the Bank of America travel rewards card asking where they can et their pins (blame the banks for that too as they as well as their well informed csr's don't make the differendce clear!)
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Old Aug 29th, 2013, 03:53 AM
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Certainly here in the Netherlands no PIN, no transaction. Seriously. There is no other option here.
And no ticket machine works with a signature.
You need a PIN to really make use of a chipped CC in Europe, otherwise a swipe card with signature is as much use, ie in NL no use outside your hotel, which may or may not be able to swipe it.
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Old Aug 29th, 2013, 04:21 AM
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hetismij2 -- is this a recent change?

I used my swipe card extensively in Spring 2012 in Amsterdam without issue (other than the known issue of buying train tickets). Restaurants, tourist attractions, etc. were fine.
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Old Aug 29th, 2013, 04:54 AM
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So in other words I got into a shop, hand over my chip and signature card (or even an Andrews FCU chip and pin card), the merchant or I insert it into the chip reader,the terminal flashes signature required and begins printing the credit card receipt to be signed, what happens next?

Also while I don't question anything being said, I think never can be used is a tad too strong. We know about the railways problem but I find it hard to believe a department store in Amsterdam would have a blanket policy of not taking American credit cards. A small mom and pop shop, yes I believe it but restaurants catering at all to tourists I don't buy it.
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Old Aug 29th, 2013, 05:19 AM
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Why do American banks issue chip & signature cards if American retailers do not have chip readers, and European retailers expect chip cards to have a pin?
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Old Aug 29th, 2013, 06:02 AM
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chartley....that's a good question. The answer lies somewhere in a 115 page thread on the flyertalk forum which I've been following for the past year and a half that it's been up and I still can't answer that.

Some of the claims...

1. Liability laws in the USA

2. Chip and signature is the standard outside Europe.

3. Their hearts azre not really in it. It's like the guy who goes down to a pool and really doesn't want to dive in so he or she puts his or her big toe in the water to test its temperature. The banks were getting pressure from some of their high end customers as troubles began to mount in acceptance of the antiquated American credit cards so the banks felt they had to do something. So Chase and Citibank began on some of their cards to begin offering chip and signature cards. The back end was much simpler for them with chip and signature card. There are two other enigmas here. Several federal credit unions in the DC area catering to certain US government agencies began offering what they told us were chip and pin cards (Andrews FCU, State Department FCU, Pen(tagon) FCU...btw all contract the processing out to the same firm apparently. So we all ran to get these cards, at least I did and many others who follow this on flyertalk. Lo and behold we discovered they weren't true chip and pin cards, they are chip and signature cards which have the ability to operate as chip and pin in unpersonneled kiosks but you as the customers cannot control this. If the pos takes chip and signature you can't make the card function as chip and pin and if it's a merchant's decision not to take chip and signature, you're out of luck. I am with you. I don't get it and never have. As I've said countless times, the only US bank with any sort of major credit card program (and we can argue that) which issues a pure chip and pin card is USAA and only on its mastercard not its visa card. But as noted, that card comes with a 1% foreign transaction fee. I want a card with no annual fee and no foreign transaction fee.

Perhaps the biggest surprise which still nobody gets is Cap One. Cap one helped build up its credit card base by advertising no foreign transaction fee and many rushed to get the card so one would expect they would have been one of the first to go chip and pin (or even just signature). As noted in this thread, you call Cap One and ask about ehri chip cards, you are told you don't need one that all merchants are required to take any valid visa (or master) card whether it has a chip or not. That's their attitude.

Look, I'd like to believe there is a practical reason for this. The argument that it would be very costly to convert the entire US payment systems by issuing all merchants new terminals does have a degree of validity just like the illy argument that the US should not convert from miles to kilometers is the cost of replacing all the highway signs. (I don't know the argument for Celsius vs. Farenheit but that's another story)). Also the continued refusal of the US to do away with $1 and $2 banknotes and issue true impressive looking coins for these trivial amounts still are among my pet peeves despite the cost to the Treasury (and noow our friends in Canada have done away with the penny and price amounts are in intervals of 5 cents while the US goes ahead and continues to mint pennies despite the fact is costs more than a penny, much more, to make the coin but again that's another story). Perhaps people are right. Perhaps it's in our way to be contrary minded and think every thing we do is bigger and beter than the rest of the world...look at how long it has taken to get some control on drug prices here. The same drugs in Canada made by the same company in the same packaging costs 1/3 as much as in the USA because the USA does not allow negotiations on drug prices; the free market at work which benefits insurance companies and doctors at the expense of the everyday joe in the street but that crosses into politics and we can't have that. Obamacare, a modest attempt to control medical costs, is ripped to shreds because America is the home of the free market. Tat's as far as I will go on that.

I know it's a long answer and probably does not answer the question but go to flyertalk, look up the thread on emv cards issued in the USA and if you have about 4 or 5 hours with nothing to do, maybe you can figure out the answer. I still can't.
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Old Aug 29th, 2013, 09:42 AM
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Hi XYZ123. Thanks for your reply: it wasn't too long, and some of the differences between different markets were also revealed.

For example, I have never understood the argument that the USA is so big that the cost would be too high. The cost is ultimately borne by the transactions that are made, and the USA is much more enthusiastic about card transactions than many European countries. Are the POS terminals supplied free by the banks? Over here, they are bought by the shop, hotel, or whatever, and there are a large number of payment transaction companies, not just the banks.

What I have always found especially baffling is that the aspect of the United States that I most admire is the willingness to try new systems and technologies. For all of my life, most technical developments have started in the United States and have then moved to countries like Britain. The time delay now is much reduced, and sometimes the United States adopts a technology before it has been fully developed, but that still holds true. Chip & Pin has been introduced successfully in many other countries, and user resistance has been low. It has security and other advantages, and yet the greatest country that has ever existed (TM) still comes up with what look like feeble excuses for being non-adopters.

By the way, every country has its daft rules and strange pattersn of behaviour, but we tend not to defend them so energetically.
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Old Aug 29th, 2013, 11:07 AM
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I have an Andrews chip and pin card, and I often used it in Europe this summer with the pin (especially in France), but as xyz says, it often defaulted to signature.

Can someone explain the problems with using cards in the Netherlands? I had a functioning chip and pin card, but there were odd places it just wouldn't work, like the grocery stores (big and small). Never had a problem in restaurants, but I couldn't use just any OV machine to put money on my OV card. I could use it with my pin at the beefier OV machine at Centraal.

I ended up just making sure I had cash.

As my local credit union has started passing on the charges for international ATM use, I'm thinking of switching to Andrews in general. Need to double check their charges first.
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Old Aug 29th, 2013, 12:11 PM
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I don't know why some people assume US banks aren't doing it for fear of foreign technology (if that is true, I don't know where this was invented). They are banks, I presume they are doing it for financial reasons and they don't see one for doing it, that's all. I've read articles on this, some time ago, true, and it cited fraud statistics and they were very different in the US and Europe for things that these chips could prevent. It was simply not in their financial interest to do it. And you'd have to get retailers to have all new machines, so they wouldn't want to do it for no reason, as they'd have to pay for that machine conversion. And there wouldn't be any advantage to them, supposedly the fraud reasons would be the advantage to the bank.

I've also read it had something to do with the costs of the way transactions are processed in the US vs. Europe. That in Europe, they wanted transactions approved at the POS terminal because it is more expensive in Europe to have them approved over telecommunication networks as they are in the US. So it isn't necessarily just that the European method is better but that they did it becuase it made financial sense for them.


I suppose that's it right there -- why would a store want to raise prices and alienate customers for something that is of no advantage to them?

I have to admit I don't know how these work, but I always thought most CC fraud occurred online and obviously, CHIP and PIN can't work online, so what do they do in Europe about those online transactions? Can you buy anything online just like in the US with a nonchip card? Because it seems they couldn't change that level of fraud at all.

Well, I have no investment in this issue, if they get them, I would like it, but I also assume they aren't doing it now for reasons that make some financial sense, not just because they don't like Europe.
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Old Aug 29th, 2013, 02:03 PM
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Sorry xyz, I finally carefully read your post and now know my Andrews card is some kind of hybrid chip and pin. geez.

It did its job in France with the tolls and gas stations though.
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Old Aug 29th, 2013, 02:19 PM
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Online shopping usually requires entering a special password through Verified by Visa or the MasterCard equivalent for the transaction to go through.
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Old Sep 2nd, 2013, 05:14 AM
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In the Netherlands most people pay electronically by using their debit card with chip and pin. The chip and pin on debit cards has been introduced in 2011 (before that debit cards were swiped and then you could enter your pin).

After the introduction of debit cards with chip and pin in 2011, many shops etc were forced to upgrade/change their pay terminals to accomodate chip and pin. Some older pay terminals already had 2 options; chip and pin / swipe and pin. Newer pay terminals could have 2 options like the older machines, or just one option; chip and pin.

Two years later, most shops etc have changed/upgraded their pay terminals to a newer machine/version. And more and more shops etc have opted to only buy a terminal that onlys uses chip and pin for you debit card.

The same pay terminals that are used for chip and pin debit cards, can also be used for chip and pin credit cards. But it is an option the shop etc has to choose to have on the pay terminal. More and more shops etc do choose to have the option of using chip and pin credit cards by the way. Most national retailers, gas stations and restaurant do offer chip and pin credit card payments.


There still are a lot of 'old style' pay terminals where you can either chip and pin, or swipe and pin ( debit and/or credit card, depending on the choice of the shopkeeper etc).
But as pay terminals are being renewed, more and more shopkeepers only opt for the chip and pin version.
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Old Sep 7th, 2013, 05:44 AM
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We just returned from three weeks in the Netherlands and while our non-chip / pin credit card worked at many places, there were many more places that it did not work and yes, these were staffed shops, gas stations and parking garages with attendants. As other posters have noted there are still older terminals around but it really seems like there are more and more newer terminals. I would advise carrying cash and not assume that swipe cards will work throughout the Netherlands.
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Old Sep 7th, 2013, 05:58 AM
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All British retailers who operate merchant terminal still have the facility to process signed transaction as long as the card does not have a chip.

If the card does have a chip, they should not use the signed authority function.

Shop in an alternative outlet if you are queried, the staff just have not been trained correctly. You may need a passport or photo ID.
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Old Sep 7th, 2013, 08:22 AM
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Xyz123 wrote: "The only bank currently offering a true chip and pin card is USAA on one of its mastercard."

Thank you, xyz123! I have had a USAA World MasterCard for many years, but didn't realise they offered the option of chip and pin until I read your post. Sure enough, there it was hidden away in the credit card FAQs, but they certainly don't publicise it. I have now ordered a chip and pin card.
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Old Sep 7th, 2013, 11:17 AM
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I have noticed several places in London with signs recently stating that they only accept cards with pins! This is new from my experience but could be a trend...
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Old Sep 7th, 2013, 11:24 AM
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Andrews chip and pin is our card for Europe. We have complained to Navy Federal and USAA but they have never got with the program. As many military people in Europe that there are you would think they would.
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Old Sep 7th, 2013, 11:35 AM
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"I have noticed several places in London with signs recently stating that they only accept cards with pins! This is new from my experience but could be a trend.."

As I remember reading, when the UK converted to chip and pin cards in 2006, there were howl from some groups representing the handicapped and the law said that provisions had to be made to keep them from being discriminated against.

One of the solutions offered was chip and signature. Are you saying chip and signature cards would not be accepted; which would bring us around to what we've been discussing. You can't tell a chip and signature card from a chip and pin card; the only instance a merchant would know is when running the transaction, a message will be flashed signature required. Will merchants than void the transaction? Doesn't make sense to me (although I do know of instances where indeed this has happened at least according to some blogs).

Not saying you're wrong or anything, just wonderin.
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