paperbag

No Risk??? Robespiere, you need to update yourself with the times. Today a lot of stuff can be purchased in digital format: music, soccer match transmissions, software etc. The Card Holder Address wont help you here. Imagine if someone raked up a $300 bill for an adult entertainment website on your behalf.

Robespierre

Then the perpetrator would have to know my name, address, credit card number, expiration date, CVV, and possibly home phone number. Because without that information a valid authorization is impossible to get. And without a valid authorization, the charge is no good.

<u><b>I</b></u> need to update <u><b>my</b></u>self? That's a good one! I've been an online merchant since November 1991. Having handled many thousands of transactions in the interim, I think I know whereof I speak.

paperbag

the perp would have these details if he saw your card.
&gt;phone number??
huh? why would he need this? Rob you are clutching at straws.
I buy online because i find it convenient and accept the level of risk but i dont agree with your Zero Risk insistence.
The risk is there and thats why the credit card companies have developed disposable credit card numbers. but they are not in wide use as not many online merchants have chosen to support them yet. http://news.com.com/2100-1017-245428.html
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20040510/1111225.shtml

Chicago_Heather

OP, it's a good reminder. And, no, you don't have to cover the cost of goods/services purchased with the stolen number. HOWEVER, if someone steals the credit card number(s) and max's out your card(s), you are out of luck during your travels or you are in for unpleasantness trying to straighten it out en route. Not everyone has scads of credit cards at his/her disposal while traveling.

All points posted taken into account, no matter where you are, it isn't as if it is a bad idea to be careful with your credit card numbers.

Robespierre

the perp would have these details if he saw your card.
&gt;phone number??
huh? why would he need this? Rob you are clutching at straws. <i>An online merchant who wants to be <u>absolutely</u> sure he isn't going to eat a chargeback checks the cardholder's name, address, CVV, and phone number when he transmits an authorization request to the issuer's computer. Unless you write them there, your address and phone number are not on the card.</i>

I buy online because i find it convenient and accept the level of risk but i dont agree with your Zero Risk insistence. <i>There isn't any risk. If your number is used by a thief and there is no signature (either on a charge slip or delivery confirmation), the merchant has to eat the charge.</i>

The risk is there and thats why the credit card companies have developed disposable credit card numbers. <i>One More Time: the reason credit card companies have developed all their safeguards is because <b>it is <u>they</u> (not <u>you</u> who are liable if your card is used fraudulently</b> (see: Rogue Merchant Scenario, above).</i>

You're <u>guessing</u> how this all works. I <u>know</u>.

Maire

Robes, I'm asking this sincerely, not sarcastically:

If you had 5-10 receipts with your full cc number on them, and you lost them on the street somewhere (and let's assume a dishonest person found them), would you be concerned?

Robespierre

Not in the slightest.

As I said before: what do you think the finder is going to do, walk into a fancy restaurant and charge an expensive meal on your number, and then go on a luxury shopping spree? How stupid would a merchant have to be to risk his or her product in that scenario?

AngelaS

Robes - If someone at a restaurant copied down your cc number, the 3 digits on back, exp. date, your name, and then does a little research on the internet &amp; find your home address and home phone number. Then, according to you, they would have all the information needed to make online purchases under your account.

surfmom

Actually in Europe when they bring the handheld card reader, isn't that safer than the US ? The card is never out of your sight in most instances. (At least for restaurant transactions).

Here's an interesting scenario (and a true one):
- we were in a store in Ireland - I gave the clerk my cc to pay for items. While she was wrapping them up (there were many small fragile things I was buying as gifts), somehow my card 'disappeared'. At the end of the transaction, I said, 'you didn't give me my card back.' She claimed she did. We searched for 15 minutes and no card. We called security and I used the store phone to call the US and cancel my cc. In the meantime, security reviewed the surveillance tapes and couldn't see the entire counter (there were multiple clerks working there), so nothing proven. When I got my cc statement a month later, there were THREE (3) transactions in the amounts of $500 total in that 20 minute timeframe. Needless to say, I certainly didn't eat them! Sounds like an inside job, huh?

The lesson I learned: my bh (better half, also known as DH - darling hubbie) and I carry DIFFERENT credit cards - they may be joint cards with both of us authorized to use them, but that way, if one of us loses/has lifted a card or wallet, the other one always has a backup with a different number. (this was not a problem on this trip, but the 'backup' card in this case, had a significantly lower limit).

sorry to be off-topic, but I still wonder who exactly was in on it...

aren't there now some credit cards that have changed to $0 liability instead of the traditional $50 liability in case of lost/stolen cards ? (due to internet shopping)

xyz123

Some of this fraud is not new of course...several years ago at Saks 5th Avenue in NY, a very high end store BTW, a clerk was arrested with one of those devices that read the info off of the magnetic stripe...she was running the credit card through the machine as well as the store register and of course giving it to the Nigerian or Eastern European vermin who have been pulling this garbage...a wise Greek tourist saw what was going on and alerted store security.

Today I read several articles regarding the chip and pin cards used in the UK...it seems that at Shell stations on the self service card readers somehow devices were implanted that stole not only the information on the magnetic stripes (these cards have to still have magnetic stripes for international travel to &quot;backward&quot; places like the US [pliease it's meant as a joke]which have not adopted chip and pin....anyway the cards were then cloned and used outside the UK to empty bank accounts. The articles all said that it is possible to get one of these readers for as little as $300 off the internet and there is far more of a chance of your cc number and all the security features being stolen that way then by copying them off the discarded slips.

On a somewhat related topic, I have been engaged in a bit of a dispute with a local Wal-Mart. Recently for all credit card transactions they have been asking for identification...I refuse to show anybody but a police officer my driver's license...why, I hear some asking...after all, as the store says, it is for my protection.

Not on your life...if 1 credit card number is stolen while there might be a bit of discomfort, usually a simple phone call and a letter resolves the matter and usually that's the end of it. If a credit card number as well as say a driver's license number is stolen, that can be a completely different matter. Armed with your driver's license number as well as a credit card number, these vermin can begin stealing your identity. It is for that reason, that Mastercard and visa prohibit merchants from asking for identity if you present a properly signed credit card...after making a stink about this, after about 5 minutes of arguing back and forth, the store ran the transaction without me showing my id (the charges were no more than $30 anyway, somewhat less than I paid for gas moments before by simply swiping my card at a gas station card reader).

The moral of the story...the pieces of slime out there pulling this garbage have all sorts of sophisticated ways of trying to get you...least of my worries is the numbers on the cc receipts (although I would rather, obviously, they not have them)..

J62

I agree with Robespierre here. For me, worrying about paper receipts with the cc # on them is like watching the rear door of a barn when the front door is wide open.

I've had fraud several times over the years, all double charges at restaurants in Europe. Always an inside job.

My agreement with my cc issuers protects me with $0 liability - if I didn't authorize the charge I don't pay. Period.

I enjoy not being a worry wart and enjoying life, not constantly watching my back.

Robespierre

&quot;Robes - If someone at a restaurant copied down your cc number, the 3 digits on back, exp. date, your name, and then does a little research on the internet &amp; find your home address and home phone number. Then, according to you, they would have all the information needed to make online purchases under your account.&quot;

I suppose so. But that's pretty far-fetched, and a long way from the original premise of this thread, <i>viz</i>, that exposing your credit card number was dangerous.

Anyway, it's why you should scratch the CVV off your cards - just in case.

LoveItaly

I was at the local supermarket. Went to use my credit card and for some reason (my brain turned off I guess) the next second my cc was not there. Long story short the store mananger came over. I suspected the clerk, a new clerk with a very surly attitude who has never been seen working at the supermarket since. Of course I did not express my suspicions.

Anyway, the store mananger told me the same thing had happened at their supermarket that morning (with the same clerk I would suspect). The customer went home and called her cc co. to cancel her card (as I did immediately when I got home). The customer came back to the supermarket a bit later to let the mananger know that by the time she got home and called her cc co. a large amount had been charged on her card at a nearby department store. This woman was not held responsible for the charges of course. But it certainly tells me that there are ways that the slimebags can use your information for fraudulent purchases.

xyz123

That's why I like those supermarkets that have swipe terminals where the clerk never touches your credit card....of course what that also leads to is they don't check signatures on credit cards.

As a matter of fact, I note that when in Britain, every clerk looks at the signature on my credit card and compares it with the signature on the sales slip...in the USA unless it is a very large purchase, many stores now have those swipe terminals and signatures are checked rarely.

xyz123

Robespierre...

I have seen in some stores that the clerks are required to enter the ccv into the terminal when running a cc transaction...if you have scratched it off first of all the word void under the signature panel might appear and secondly they would be unable to complete the transaction.

Robespierre

The CVV is for &quot;Card <b>Not</b> Present&quot; transactions only. See here:

http://www.sti.nasa.gov/cvv.html

The Authorization Request message that is transmitted to the authorization host computer for a &quot;Card <b>Present</b>&quot; transaction has no CVV field in it. There's nothing they can do with that data.

You should <b>never</b> enter either your CVV or PIN into a POS terminal. If a merchant requires it, find another one who doesn't.

J62

I remember one time a few years ago a clerk looked at the signatures to compare. For an obvious reason, they did not match. I had not signed the back of the new credit card yet.

She handed me a pen, looked at the signatures when I was done, and satisfied that they matched, sent me on my way.

LoveItaly

Hi xyz, about two months ago the supermarket did install the swipe type of cc machines..and you sign your name on the screen of the machine. So your card never leaves your hand (well unless you are careless like I was that time). And consequently you are correct, noone compares your signature to the signature on the back of your cc. I imagine the department store where the stolen cc was used had the swipe type of machine also..I can't remember as I hardly ever go to that particular store.

xyz123

....and btw at the Wal-Mart's where I have refused to show ID, they have swipe terminals and I don't want the credit card to leave my hand and I sign on the terminal (which has become very common now, the signature is captured electronically) but agreed in most such cases, nobody checks the signature (just as well as clerks can memorize numbers and provide them to the credit card thieves as noted although I agree, it's not very likely)..

Also in the case noted above, if you present an unsigned credit card, mastercard and visa in that case do allow as a matter of fact require some other form of identification.

xyz123

Robes...

I won't disagree with you but I do know on Amex cards, there is a 3 digit number on the back and a 4 digit number on the front and I know for a fact that in many cases, (staples comes to mind), I have seen the clerk enter that 4 digit number into the terminal....still not sure what would happen to you if you scratched off the ccv number and the word void shone through!