RufusTFirefly

Evil globalization strikes again--first the metric system and celsius; then the Euro; now universal chips in credit cards. Can international ID chips embedded in our foreheads be far behind?

xyz123

Rufus..

I don't know if you're being serious, faceteous or just plain humourous...

Listen, there is a problem, whether we like it or not, that the US continues to go it alone on so many things. Many of these things will only help and won't lead to a loss of American soverignty.

You get up in the morning while holidaying in London and the man on the telly says the high will be 12 degrees....what kind of a coat do you put on? To the best of my knowledge most British weather reports only give the temperature in Celsius....

Or you're traveling in your American car and are in Canada and the speed limit says 100....so you gun your accelerator and are pulled over and given a citation for travelling 160 in a 100 zone and you say to the officer but I was just following the speed limit.

Let's face it, 3 feet to a yard, 5,280 feet to a mile (which is 1,760 yards)...isn't it easier to understand 1000 meters make a kilometer so that 3257 meters is 3.257 meters? It should have been done years ago; yes there would be some very short term pain which would last 2 or 3 days, my god throughout Europe they just changed their money and by the end of the third day, it was done....

If the chip and pin cards begin to mean Americans will not be able to use their credit cards while on holiday or travelling for business, you just watch how quickly the banks will figure out a way to join the rest of the world.....

Globalization is not necessarily evil and unfortunately it is coming; it is just a question of how much longer.

nibblette

When I was in the UK in late December, stores everywhere were talking about the chip and pin change, telling their UK card holders their non-chip card would no longer be accepted in 2005.

Maybe someone who goes to the UK in early 2005 can report back on the ease of use of US non-chip credit cards. I know I will have difficulty paying for my hotels with my ATM card since I don't keep a lot in the account for fear of the card/info being stolen.

Patrick

The assumption that all machines in Europe will have to recognize the lack of a chip system on American cards couldn't be more wrong. It's been a couple of years now since I learned there were places I couldn't use my US card because it wasn't a "chip" card. One is to buy train tickets from the machines in the Amsterdam train station. I was finally told that those machines ONLY recognize chip cards, so I had to stand in line rather than use the machines. There have been other examples as well.

Just a note to those who think that everything in the US is light years ahead of "backward" Europe. WRONG!

nibblette

Just saw an article on the bbc website about the changes.
Retailers will not be held liable for fraudulent charges whether the new card or a non-chip card is used as long as they have installed the new chip and pin system. If they do not have the system in place, they will be responsible for the fraud charges. So, it sounds like the non-chip card can still be used with the new system.

xyz123

Okay...

So I think based on all we've read today on various web sites that merchants will still be able to take non chip and pin cards for the forseeable future and that I'm almost willing to bet that all of the new terminals will have technology for both chip and pin cards and magnetic stripe cards and that the merchant will only have a problem with fraudulent use of a chip and pin card i.e. not getting the pin on such a card...

The problem, as I see it, is the same one as with dynamic currency conversion. That is merchants, especially in those places which don't see a lot of tourist trade, thinking they can't take non chip & pin cards and telling people with such cards they can't be used in the same way some cashiers in hotels and other places where dynamic currency conversion is in effect claim they must write up charges in the card's currency when this is not so.....

I do know that in France once upon a time merchants needed 2 terminals, one for French chip & pin and the other for magnetic stripe cards but now the terminals take both.....I presume such will also be the case in the UK but then again this is simply an opinion and I don't mean to say I am stating facts!

AnselmAdorne

xyz123, you make a good point about globalization or standardization, and refer to Canadian speed limits being posted in kilometres. True enough. We also sell gasoline and milk by the litre and measure temperature on the Celsius scale. People adapted very quickly.

Unfortunately, Canadians balked at buying food in metric units, so we have the ridiculous situation of meat and produce being displayed with two prices: so much per kilo and so much per pound. The poor fellow behind the meat counter has to "talk" both systems. My wife, for example, always asks for so many grams of Black Forest ham, while the customer behind her might just as easily ask for a quarter of a pound ...

The building supply store? Copper pipe and wood are still sold in imperial units, although I can ask for a kilo of roofing nails. Length? Three quarters of an inch, please.

I really do wish we'd changed the whole system, because metric is so much easlier.

Sorry to divert this from credit cards!

Anselm

AR

What the Times says is that:

"Retailers must use the technology or reimburse credit card companies for any fraudulent transactions".

I think that is clear enough.
BTW, you can bet whatever you like xyz123 thinking that merchants will have both systems (i.e. swipe and C&P) but the fact is that most won't. I'm talking from everyday experience and conversations here, not from over 3000 miles away in another continent. Take my word for it. You will obviously get places still willing to swipe but the majority cater for everyday UK folk going about their business. Take it from me, my local petrol garage won't be getting the most expensive gadgets becasue there may be Americans driving the cars, and neither will the majority of other retailers.

No-one is going to have any immediate problems as a lot of companies have yet to issue C&P cards (Wanadoo Marbles & Goldfish for instance), so any visitors finding that they can use their cards OK this year may not next. What will happen is that C&P will become so prevelant that trying to obtain a signature will be something so rare outside major tourist sites.

xyz123

No Chatters...

Not trying to be argumentative but you sort of hit on the point. As many Brits still do not have chip & pin cards, the terminals themselves that are coming out will have to take both for the forseeable future. Most of the countries that have embraced the technology have terminals that take both see for example France and many of the Scandanavian countries.

I agree with the new system and at some point the US will have to embrace it and I also agree that when the system is fully enabled in the UK there will be many merchants who will be leery of taking signature only cards; but the systems that will be put in place and the terminals that will be put in place will allow them to do so for a while. Whether they will or not is another story....

nwyman

I've been reading this thread with interest. I called both Visa and MasterCard and was told by both that US customers didn't have to worry about it - if asked for a code, they should use the security code on the back of their card.
When I questioned them about the Chip-reading machine vs. the strip reading device, they told me that the merchants would be using terminals that would have them calling headquarters when presented with the magnetic cards. The security code on the back of the card would then be used to validate the purchase.

At least for the present.

marcelin

The claim that international magnetic stripe cards will not be accepted in the UK is hogwash. It is true that UK-issued cards are rapidly being converted to "chip-and-pin", and that liability for fraudulent transacations* is being shifted. But...

marcelin

The claim that international magnetic stripe cards will not be accepted in the UK is hogwash. It is true that UK-issued cards are rapidly being converted to "chip-and-pin", and that liability for fraudulent transacations* is being shifted. None of this has any effect on the acceptance of foreign cards.

To quote one UK bank,

"Will retailers still accept my signature until I receive my new chip and PIN card?

It will take some time for all cards to be changed to chip and PIN and retailers will still be able to accept cards with a magnetic stripe for many years to come."

To quote the central source of information on "chip-and-pin":

"What will the fallback procedures be if the either the point-of-sale terminal fails to read the chip or the customer forgets their PIN?

If the chip fails, fallback to magnetic stripe and signature may be permitted. Similarly, if the cardholder forgets their PIN, fallback to signature may be permitted. These options will be discontinued as soon as it is practical to do so...

There will, however, be instances where PIN will not be used by certain cardholders, for example ... foreign cardholders yet to be issued with chip and PIN cards. The terminal will recognise the card and prompt the payment process that is to be followed."

Before speculating, or extrapolating from local information, the poster might have checked

http://www.chipandpin.co.uk/business...ents/faqs.html

Paul Marcelin-Sampson
Santa Cruz, California, USA

* Liability is shifted only when a "chip-and-pin" transaction is possible, for example when the card supports "chip-and-pin" but the retailer or the user chooses a fallback approval method.

marcelin

Further information, from Barclays:

"Although card scheme rules do permit removal of the 'PIN Bypass' signature fallback option, they do not permit retailers to decline foreign-issued cards because of a failure of the chip read."

and

"Some chip cards may be presented that do not comply with the EMV specifications e.g. French 'CB' cards or German Geldkarte cards. Some of these cards may carry the brand of an international card scheme, however the interoperable component on these cards is the magnetic stripe, not the chip.

...

Transactions involving cards that are not identified as UK-issued cards ... must follow the full range of fallback options permitted by EMV [Europay/Mastercard/Visa] ... This is independent of any fallback rules subsequently determined for UK cards."

MasterCard and Visa impose broad card acceptance rules on merchants. If a merchant refuses to honor a valid card, report the merchant to MasterCard International or Visa International immediately. This problem can occur abroad (e.g. when a merchant doesn't want to bother with manual fallback procedures) or at home* (e.g. when a merchant requires a cardholder to show photo identification solely for the purpose of completing a credit card transaction). In my experience, uninformed small business owners are the main culprits.

Paul Marcelin-Sampson
Santa Cruz, California, USA

* For common domestic complaints, see http://global.mastercard.com/consumer/cust_serv.html , as an example.

xyz123

Interesting Paul...

But I have a question...my British mobile phone company (Virgin Mobile) says you may only use a UK issued credit card to register to top up. Are they in violation of the rules you cited in only accepting UK based cards for top up? And this is common as the same thing is true of my Dutch prepaid....

marcelin

xyz123, this is a very good question for the credit card companies.

Especially with the advent of the Web, there is global awareness of goods, services and offers that were once reserved for local customers. Some US airline Web sites, for example, have different procedures for people who reside in different countries. My favorite is American Airlines: "If you are not a resident of the U.S., Canada, U.K., or select countries in Latin America or the Caribbean, tickets cannot be purchased online but may be placed on hold for purchase at an AA airport or ticket office." This is ridiculous for a global concern, let alone for one that happens to be closing its city ticket offices.

With respect to the example you cite, my guess is that Virgin Mobile and the credit card companies would answer that the UK-issued card rule is an imperfect surrogate for a broader business rule: offer available only to UK residents. Or, Virgin might propose a manual alternative for holders of non-UK cards, such as presenting the card in person at a local office. Of course I am speculating, and it would be best to ask the vendor or the card companies directly. I didn't find a good answer in MasterCard's Merchant Rules Manual.

The credit card companies fight business rules that put cardholders at a disadvantage. Business rules that apply to all customers, regardless of the form of payment (e.g. presenting photo identification to rent a video) are permitted.

Paul Marcelin-Sampson
Santa Cruz, California, USA

Katharine22

Are any US-based credit card companies issuing chip/pin-based cards for American travelers concerned with this issue? It seems like something frequent travelers might want to have.

AR

Tesco, the UK's biggest supermarket chain have issued the following press statement:
"If customers forget their PIN number they can continue to sign if they wish until that ability is removed. That will be an industry decision, which will probably be taken next September".

You are probably correct that the Credit Card issuers have fallback rules that "must" be adhered to, but if the UK's biggest retailer issues a dictat to staff that people can still sign "until that ability is removed" then the staff will follow their manager's guidelines. It will be hopeless quoting any business laws at checkout staff regardless of your statutory rights. That is my point.
For sure, stores already have a raft of rules that they ignore such as the laws of returned items, merchandisable quality (i.e. when an electrical item breaks down outside the guarantee period) etc. These staff will become jobsworths and just say "computer says no".

xyz123

AR...

I think we can safely assume at this point that my opinion was correct; there is too much money on international transaction that the credit card companies, MC and Visa, will fight like hell not to lose and so for the forseeable future, although UK cardholders may and probably will have to use PINS and chips, provisions will have to be made in the terminals, as they have always been in countries such as France to take non Pin and chip cards from outside the UK.

From what I read, the chip technology being adopted in the UK is not compatible with the French chip technology and the EU certainly will not allow one member (UK) to prevent international credit card use by another member (France)....

I am sure there will be lots of situations where merchants, or the kids working for merchants, will try to tell foreign cardholders that they must use a PIN. We have seen that with dynamic currency conversions where merchants try to tell people, whether knowingly or not, that charges must be written up in the cardholder's currency when that is clearly not so.

Merchants will have to invest in new terminals but the terminals will all have provisions to accept magnetic stripe cards.

There is just too much money involved and I say this as an American who is a big proponent of globalization and standardization but given the current US administration that resists globalization on important matters, you can bet nothing is going to change very soon for better or for worse.

AR

So to precis your last post:

1. Listen to me, I know best.
2. I know how the EU works better than you (ignoring the fact that I have experience of being unable to use my card in France and having to carry a leaflet from my bank demanding that they swipe my magnetic card and receiving a true Gallic shrug. Also the EU would never allow discrepancy in Europe, just like they didn't allow France to ban British beef...not.).
3. You Brits will just have to pander to American ways because we are the good old US of A and we'll kick your ass.

Don't get me wrong. I believe that you are quite right in the legalities, but your posts come accross as continually saying that the UK will HAVE to accept US cards becasue they are Americans and when in the UK for 2 weeks the Brits will kust have to goddam do what they're told.

If you come over here and hire a car, I'd love to be there when you fill up with petrol in the middle of nowhere and the attendant refuses your card. Are you going to quote Mastercard's Merchant Rules Manual at him? This is reality, not theory from thousands of miles away.

xyz123

AR...

No, no, no...I was careful not to say what you claim I am saying. I'll repeat it, I'm not one who thinks just because America does things one way, it is the right thing.

What I do say and it is not an American thing nor is it meant to be an American thing is that there is too much money involved in all tourist trade that the international credit card organizations, not the American government, not the EU, not the Japanese government, will see to it or at least try to see to it that the technology does nothing to hinder the tourist trade. I am not saying this is what should happen but what probably will happen..

And you're right, I've seen it happen. Tourists without the PIN and chip cards will find places where ignorant merchants will not be willing to take their cards without the PIN number. That's the point I'm trying to make, not that it should be done.

I don't think if you read the posts we are that far apart as you implied. And one would think it is only a matter of time, given the amount of fraud out there, and I got hit with $8,000 US of fraud two or three years ago via theft of the credit card number by a merchant in London and 4 internet charges of $2,000 each so I would be in favor of whatever can be done.

I'm really sorry if you have such a negative opinion of what I'm saying, it was not meant that way and I'm certainly not telling the British government or the EU what to do. And I do respect your superior knowledge on such things, I really do. I would hope, however, you respect mine too.