Chip and pin credit card 2015 question

Old Feb 21st, 2015, 05:11 PM
  #21  
 
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You can get a chip and pin credit card from Andrews Federal Credit Union. You have to join up (free) and keep an account of $5.00 there. You can do it all online.

I did this for France last year, but the only place I had to actually use the pin was at an unattended gas pump. Restaurants and museums always wanted my signature instead. Maybe because my card is on an American bank? So you might be okay with the chip and signature.
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Old Mar 3rd, 2015, 10:39 AM
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Most recent USA 'Chip and Pin' info: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/costly...120000448.html
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Old Mar 4th, 2015, 05:11 AM
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The number of ill-informed people really astounds me. So many believe that simply having a "chip" on their credit cards is somehow going to be the answer to all their travel prayers.

The bottom-line is, if your bank is not issuing a "PIN" to go with your new "chip" card, then this Chip-n-Signature card most likely will not be much help when you want to use it in Europe at an un-manned kiosk. You need a bank that offers the "chip" card with a PIN in order to stand any chance of it working in Europe when you need it most.

Considering Capital One's infamous relationship with travelers, why are they behind the eight-ball on this? During my last phone call to Capital One, their representative insisted that their new Venture Visa was chip-n-PIN. It wasn't until I pressed further and asked to speak to a supervisor that she discovered their card was only chip-n-signature, and did not come with a PIN. When I informed her that a Chip-n-Signature card was pretty much useless at un-manned kiosks in Europe, she began to question why Capital One was not doing a better job to accommodate its faithful travel customers.

A lot of people are hearing the news about JP Morgan Chase stepping up to include PIN, but they don't realize that not all Chase cards are eligible, and most of their cards are only Chip-n-Signature, like the Chase MileagePlus Club card from United.

And the Chase cards that do offer a PIN? Be sure to check the fine print and see what the annual fee is for that card. Chase rarely gives anything away for free. I've never known a greedier bank.

Today, there are a few credit unions who do offer Chip-n-PIN Visa cards, but most credit unions have their own hoops and fine print for a customer to jump through.

If you're renting a car in Europe and plan to use toll roads and buy gas, it's best to rely on cash until the U.S. banks finally listen to their traveler customers.
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Old Mar 4th, 2015, 06:49 AM
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As I understand your cardhub link, sojourn, or rather let me quote their Bottom Line section:

"...given that there are relatively few chip-and-PIN cards being offered to US consumers, a no foreign transaction fee magnetic stripe credit card will in most cases still be the best available option for international use since chip-and-signature credit cards don’t provide much benefit relative to magstripe credit cards when used abroad."

That seems to answer the rhetorical why people put up with magnetic stripe cards.
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Old Mar 4th, 2015, 07:31 AM
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LOL, well that's one way to look at it stokebailey.

What it is saying is that chip and signature is no better than magnetic strip. What it is NOT saying is that magnetic strip is as good as chip and PIN. Nowhere is it saying that you should 'put up with' magnetic strip cards. It is only saying getting a chip and signature card has no point to it for the traveller.

The article clearly tells you that chip and PIN is what the American consumer should be demanding. Even when using it at home, it is a far more secure transaction.

They do exist in the USA and anyone who travels outside of the USA would be wise to get one. That's the bottom line stoke.
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Old Mar 4th, 2015, 07:56 AM
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<i>The article clearly tells you that chip and PIN is what the American consumer should be demanding.</i>

The issue is fraud, and this is what the article says about potential fraud. If correct, it is understandable that banks are reluctant to change to a different card system: higher operating costs and doubling the on-line fraud losses.

"Analysts predict that credit card fraud at brick-and-mortar retailers will fall after the introduction of chip-enabled cards, but that online fraud will rise, as has happened in other countries using the technology. Research and consulting firm Aite Group estimates U.S. online card fraud will more than double to $6.6 billion from $3.3 billion between 2015 and 2018."
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Old Mar 5th, 2015, 06:07 PM
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Well here goes. There are several people here outside the USA who don't understand where the banks and credit card networks stand today on this. I will give you the latest information as I understand it.

1. EMV chip cards are coming but the USA is moving in the direction that the primary verification method will be signature sometimes i.e. chip and signature. BTW there are many retailers in the USA who don't bother, with the blessing of visa/mc/amex/discover even bother having the customer sign for small purchases which may be under $50 (for some it's under $25). It is very rare in the United States for any clerk to even bother checking the signature for larger amounts. Does anybody think a 16 year old student working at McDonald's really is capable of raising a fuss about a signature. Today at a supermarket, the customer ahead of me on the queue charged $200 worth of groceries and just swiped the card and signed. The cashier made no effort, none, zero to check the signature. In the UK, which I visit frequently, the cashier always goes through with the pretense of looking at the signature.

2. As of today, there are very few banks that issue what would be called a "true" chip and pin card. One is UNFCU. Apparently Navy FCU is also doing so although it has not been verified that it is currently being issued. Several other fcu's have announced they intend to issue "true" chip and pin cards in the near future. What is a "true" chip and pin card I hear you ask. Well in the USA the only national retailer that is currently processing emv chip compliant cards is Walmart. If you have a "true" chip and pin card and nsert it in the chip reader at a Walmart checkout, if the card is a true chip and pin card, it will ask for the pin. I know this first hand as I have the UNFCU card and indeed it passed the Walmart test. Almost every other USA issued emv compliant card when inserted in a Walmart terminal will function as chip and signature and will either request a signature on the signature pad or for small purchases not bother.

3. Many of the primary chip and signature cards do have pin backups such as Andrews FCU, State Department FCU, Barclay Bank Arrival+ as well as a few others for use in unpersonneled kiosks such as train stations or automated gas pumps and for the most part will work. Autoroutes in France may or may not work but it is not because of the lack of a pin but simply some credit cards, even those issued in other eu countries, simply will not work.

4. My experience in Great Britain, especially in London, is that chip and signature cards do work in most machines and always at merchants. British law required when chip and pin was introduced about a decade ago that provisions had to be for the handicapped who could not enter a pin and that provision is usually chip and signature.

To be continued
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Old Mar 5th, 2015, 06:42 PM
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Visa has been the most adamant about this that chip and signature is almost as good as chip and pin. They have issued regulations prohibiting unpersonneled kiosks from rejecting transactions with valid visa cards because of lack of a pin and will become more vigilant that all merchants honor all valid cards whether they be chip and signature or chip and pin. Remember I am just the messenger here. Just how well this will work is anybody's guess.

As a consumer, I enjoy zero liability for fraud so the only concern I have is my card be honored everywhere I want to use it whether it's chip and pin or chip and signature or even swipe and sometimes sign.

Visa does have some arguments as to why chip and signature will be better for Americans. Americans tend to carry more plastic than most other nationalities and it can be a pain to have to remember six or seven different pins. While you can argue that in Europe pins can easily be changed at ATM's, that is not available in the USA as it stands today and I am not sure that is such a good idea anyway.

Also just one other thing. At many banks, csr's are told to tell people who are issued a chip and signature card that if they use the cash advance pin, the transaction will be processed as a cash advance. A downright lie. Last June I was in Copenhagen and bought a one day transport ticket at a kiosk in the airport. I was asked for the pin on my Bank of America travel rewards card, entered the cash advance pin and it worked and the transaction was processed as a purchase. This was because cash advance pins are online pins sort of a guardian at my bank's door while the pins being used in most unpersonneled kiosks is an offline pin and resides on the chip. No need to go through the differences here.

Before I get flamed, I am only acting the messenger and reporting why the situations as it is exists today. The USA internally will be a chip and signature country but many merchants are still resisting as witnessed by the fact that although many merchants have installed terminals that can process emv chip transactions, few have been turned on. Only Walmart right now as a national chain is processing emv chip transactions. Now whether visa's efforts to prohibit merchants from not processing valid visa cards either at pos terminals or at kiosks is the question not whether chip and pin is superior to chip and signagture.

Again, please don't shoot the messenger.
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Old Mar 6th, 2015, 03:57 AM
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<i><font color=#555555>"Again, please don't shoot the messenger."</font></i>

Sometimes, unintelligible writing and personal stories that are difficult to prove and trust as true are interesting for patient readers, but often the verbosity does nothing more than feed an ego and clutter the air waves with more noise, offering readers a brain-freeze headache. In some cases, a messenger begs to be shot. In the case of xyz123, I appreciate the ongoing effort, but cash will always be my Plan A, no matter how many words require parsing.

In today's global economy, banking services are overly complicated. Perhaps because the world is overly complicated and the costs of and thoughts on technology are not equal and universal. Yes, controlling and, hopefully, eliminating fraud is a worthy goal for consumers. It will save everyone a lot of money in the long run. But all an international traveler wants when he/she rents a car in a foreign country is to have his/her credit card work in an unattended payment machine. Perhaps we've grown impatient, lazy, and too demanding of convenience.

Government employees who travel for work from any country know what they need. It makes sense why certain credit unions are leading the pack on this issue.

This from PenFed:
http://blog.penfed.org/chip-credit-cards/
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Old Mar 6th, 2015, 06:16 AM
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<i>But all an international traveler wants when he/she rents a car in a foreign country is to have his/her credit card work in an unattended payment machine. </i>

I have no recollection of having seen these anywhere but in the States. I rent infrequently in the U.S., but my impression is that these machines with an attached screen contact with an agent are more of a cost cutting method than a convenience for the customer.
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Old Mar 6th, 2015, 08:04 AM
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@ xyz123: I appreciate your input. Your experience with the BoA travel rewards card is especially interesting. They've been showing me ads for that card, so maybe I'll stop ignoring them now.
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Old Mar 6th, 2015, 09:12 AM
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Michael, I have no idea where the idea of inceased online fraud comes from. How would it be possible?

If you buy something online, you enter your credit card number and usually the 3 digit security number from the back of the card. Correct?

Chip and pin doesn't change anything for an online purchase. NO ONE is entering their PIN number online if that is what you are thinking. Any request online for your PIN number is definitely to be ignored. If it is being requested, you can be sure it is not on the up and up.

Read the PenFed link NYCFoodSnob has given. The USA has the highest rate of fraud. Online fraud is not the problem, cloning a magnetic strip card and forging the signature is the problem. Did you know that credit card fraud in the USA has gone up and up since the rest of the world stopped using mag strip and signature? If you're the only country where they can do it, guess where everyone goes to do it.

Why fixate on the comment re rental car terminals? ANY kind of terminal that asks for a PIN is the problem. Did you know if you visited just across the border into Canada and let's say were staying 25 miles outside Toronto and wanted to take a train into the city for the day, chances are that the only way to buy a ticket is at an terminal in the local train station. No one there to take cash or take a signature card. Just a machine that says 'enter PIN'.

What is so hard to understand? Just shorten NYCFood's statement by a few words. "But all an international traveler wants is to have his/her credit card work." Then add, 'no matter what is asked for'.

I can use a chip and PIN card in the USA and sign for something just like you do. You can't use a chip and signature or mag strip card outside of the USA and have it work every time. It's that simple. Either what you have works no matter what or it doesn't.

All the nonsense about how much it will cost to convert or fraud or anything else is simply not relevant. If you want to travel and have your card work, you need chip and PIN.
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Old Mar 6th, 2015, 09:54 AM
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Here's the thought regarding online fraud. Credit card fraud is modern day bank robbery without the guns. These vermin in these credit hacking gangs, one has to admit, are pretty good at what they do. Cloning mag strip cards is easy picking for them so there has been no need to try to clone emv compliant cards. Assuming the USA goes to emv compliant cards, even "just" chip and signature and adherence to the idea that if a card contains an emv chip the magnetic strip should not work, then the ability to counterfeit magnetic strip cards will no longer be such easy pickings for them. At that point, they will turn their attention to what can be done to thwart the security measures of the emv chip but in the interim there will be online fraud. I think I have read that in Britain, when the emv chip was introduced, cloning of cards did go down but online fraud increased substantially. Once the USA is removed as a target for magnetic strip cards, even from say Europeans whose cards contain the emv chip but also for use in the USA still continue to have magnetic strips, the thought is online fraud will increase substantially. It's a theory that at least makes sense.

I do agree that the most important thing is whether a card will work 100% of the time. Here is where one of the things I have said comes in. Visa has been most adamant about it but mastercard, amex and diners (discover) have been somewhat ambivalent allowing visa to carry the torch. Visa says the problem of merchants rejecting out of hand non pin cards will be addressed by them and that they intend to vigorously (whatever that means) their regs that all valid visa (and by extension other network) be honored by all merchants and kiosks. The argument, something we can't answer today, is ust how effective this will ultimately prove to be. One of my fears as this situation has been developed is that us as consumers have no control over the cvm list of priorities on the cards. Almost all pos terminals throughout the world can accept signature cards. You give a merchant your chip and signature card. If the card has signature for purchases has a higher order priority than offline pin, and if the terminal as is almost universal accepts signature for purchases, there have been reports in the past of some merchants refusing to complete the transaction despite the fact the terminal has approved it on the grounds they will only take pin cards. Therein lies, at least at pos card is present terminals, the "problem" with chip and signature. Visa says they will no longer allow merchants to circumvent this. The problem today is that even if your card, says the Andrews FCU card, has offline pin listed as a cvm the transaction never gets to it once the terminal accepts the higher priority signature. As far as unpersonneled kiosks, visa claims they will reqire as of 01 July, all kiosks with be required to accept all valid cards even if there is no pin verifications listed on the cvm's on the chip.

Sorry NY this is so wordy. This is not my ego speaking. I only pass along information that I know is correct and all the above information is correct as of today. Now we can argue from now until the chickens come home whether the position of the US networks is tenable. We just don't know. But the basic premises are correct. For the most part, chip and signature cards are what is available today for Americans and for the most part they will work at pos card is present terminals. I do reject those people who make blanket statements that chip and signature cards are useless. Kiosks are another story and it is for that reason I have the UNFCU card although I don't like to use it as it has a 1% foreign transaction fee and I have several cards which have the proper foreign transaction fee i.e 0% which is as it should be. It will be interesting to see how this whole thing eventually shakes out and quite frankly nobody knows what will be true in June and what will be true in October.
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Old Mar 6th, 2015, 01:06 PM
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<i><font color=#555555>"Sorry NY this is so wordy."</font></i>

If the writing is good, I don't care how many words there are. But when you type something like:

<i>"Visa says the problem of merchants rejecting out of hand non pin cards will be addressed by them and that they intend to vigorously (whatever that means) their regs that all valid visa (and by extension other network) be honored by all merchants and kiosks."</i>

Figuring out the missing words becomes anyone's guess. I call this exercise: tedious reading.
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Old Mar 6th, 2015, 01:09 PM
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Yeah...I typed it correctly but unfortunately my laptop has a tendency to have the cursor jump around without me doing anything and sometimes I don't realize it. I'm also somewhat visually impaired so it's hard for me to proof read. No need to get snappy about it but you get the gist of what I mean.
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Old Mar 6th, 2015, 04:48 PM
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<i><font color=#555555>"No need to get snappy about it"</font></i>

No snap. Just sayin'.
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Old Mar 6th, 2015, 05:02 PM
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The paragraph on increased on-line fraud came from the article that Italian-Chauffer had posted. It might pay to read what others posted.
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Old Mar 6th, 2015, 05:04 PM
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<i>Online fraud is not the problem, cloning a magnetic strip card and forging the signature is the problem. </i>

Only 27% of fraud. If you have other figures, you should give the reference.
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Old Mar 7th, 2015, 09:01 AM
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Michael, online fraud only requires that they have the card number and 3 digit security number. It has nothing to do with chip or non-chip cards.

The reason online fraud will increase is because cloning will become more difficult if cards are chipped thus the crooks will take the easier road which is online fraud. Online fraud will NOT increase because it is easier to commit online fraud with a chipped card, it will increase because it is harder to commit fraud other than online fraud with a chipped card.

I really don't know how much simpler I can make the explanation for you. The 27% of 'over the counter' fraud you refer to will go down because it will become harder to do.

The crooks aren't going to close up shop though and so they will switch to online fraud where they just need the card numbers.

If you can't understand what this means, I give up trying to explain it to you.

Xyz123, I understand and am aware of all you say. The question is as you say how will it work out. Currently at least, the fact is that a clerk in a store in Milan who is 18 years old and has never even seen a non-chip card before getting the job in the store, may refuse the card simply because s/he has not been taught how to deal with the different types of cards.

That might not happen in a high end Prada store or something where tourists are a major part of their business but in smaller stores in smaller towns etc. it is quite likely to continue. How Visa thinks they can change that I don't know. It's a people problem, not a system problem.

Yet again, in all of this, there is only one answer for the traveller TODAY. That is to have a true chip and pin card.
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Old Mar 7th, 2015, 11:17 AM
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Ah sojourntraveller...thanks for agreeing. The problem indeed is a people problem; but the only thing as I am trying to impress upon you and others, there are few issuers of "true" chip and pin cards in the USA today and we've listed them. There are more issuers of cards whose number 1 verification method is signature (with the chip) and there is little indication this is going to change in the future. I don't know how this will ultimately shake out but we poor souls in the USA will probably have to live for the most part with chip and signature which should resolve most if not all of the perceived problems.
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