Chateauneuf de Pape
Dec 31st, 2006, 06:55 AM
#21
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I have no opinion on this. But the 2006 Judgement of Paris redux gave the edge once again to California.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5435227
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5435227
Dec 31st, 2006, 07:16 AM
#22
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"Anything can rival anything else, but are you saying that the top CA wines are the equal of the top Burgundy and Bordeaux wines?"
Yea, ira, bob brown probably is saying that. And if he is, then he is right by most opinions today. ekscrunchy's link is just one of many saying that very thing.
Yea, ira, bob brown probably is saying that. And if he is, then he is right by most opinions today. ekscrunchy's link is just one of many saying that very thing.
Dec 31st, 2006, 07:30 AM
#23
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Dec 31st, 2006, 08:05 AM
#24
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<i>Author: NeoPatrick
Date: 12/31/2006, 09:37 am
well, actually you didn't. I guess then that what you were really saying was for Cimbrone to forget all about taking home Chateauneuf de Pape and take home burgundy instead. If I were Cimbrone I'd certainly ignore that advice -- burgundies don't rival Chateauneuf de Pape's in my humble opinion.</i>
I would only ignore my advice if Cimbrone did not want to take the trouble to travel up to Burgundy, which I can fully appreciate. Since Chateauneuf du Pape is right there in Provence s/he should surely visit, taste, and bring home some souvenirs.
As for preferring one wine over another that is a matter of personal taste. We all have individual taste buds. Chateauneuf du Pape is an excellent full-bodied dry red wine, made with syrah, grenache, and other grapes.
For my budget I prefer Burgundy, made with pinot noir. If I had more money I would drink the grand cru from Gevrey-Chambertin near Dijon. Superb.
Wikipedia notes on Gevrey-Chambertin: http://tinyurl.com/yelk93
Google map: http://tinyurl.com/shlx2
Santé!
Date: 12/31/2006, 09:37 am
well, actually you didn't. I guess then that what you were really saying was for Cimbrone to forget all about taking home Chateauneuf de Pape and take home burgundy instead. If I were Cimbrone I'd certainly ignore that advice -- burgundies don't rival Chateauneuf de Pape's in my humble opinion.</i>
I would only ignore my advice if Cimbrone did not want to take the trouble to travel up to Burgundy, which I can fully appreciate. Since Chateauneuf du Pape is right there in Provence s/he should surely visit, taste, and bring home some souvenirs.
As for preferring one wine over another that is a matter of personal taste. We all have individual taste buds. Chateauneuf du Pape is an excellent full-bodied dry red wine, made with syrah, grenache, and other grapes.
For my budget I prefer Burgundy, made with pinot noir. If I had more money I would drink the grand cru from Gevrey-Chambertin near Dijon. Superb.
Wikipedia notes on Gevrey-Chambertin: http://tinyurl.com/yelk93
Google map: http://tinyurl.com/shlx2
Santé!
Dec 31st, 2006, 08:18 AM
#25
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???
Sure. Wine is a matter of personal taste, and since Cimbrone's post was all about bringing home what I asssumed was his preferred taste -- "Chateauneuf de Pape" I guess I just didn't get why you were telling him to forget his taste and do yours instead -- a burgundy.
And yes I personally much prefer the more full bodied reds than a Pinot Noir or Burgundy. I thought maybe Cimbrone is the same since that's what he was asking about.
No problem, just didn't get the point, I guess.
Sure. Wine is a matter of personal taste, and since Cimbrone's post was all about bringing home what I asssumed was his preferred taste -- "Chateauneuf de Pape" I guess I just didn't get why you were telling him to forget his taste and do yours instead -- a burgundy.
And yes I personally much prefer the more full bodied reds than a Pinot Noir or Burgundy. I thought maybe Cimbrone is the same since that's what he was asking about.
No problem, just didn't get the point, I guess.
Dec 31st, 2006, 09:28 AM
#26
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Hi ek,
>Here is another link to the event:..<
If I read this correctly, the very same wines that competed in 1973 were compared again.
Wouldn't one expect the results to be almost the same?
Were the wines tasted from outstanding vintages?
Have there been yearly comparisons?
Is this anything more than a publicity stunt?
>Here is another link to the event:..<
If I read this correctly, the very same wines that competed in 1973 were compared again.
Wouldn't one expect the results to be almost the same?
Were the wines tasted from outstanding vintages?
Have there been yearly comparisons?
Is this anything more than a publicity stunt?
Dec 31st, 2006, 09:28 AM
#27
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<i>Author: NeoPatrick
Date: 12/31/2006, 12:18 pm
I just didn't get why you were telling him to forget his taste and do yours instead -- a burgundy.
And yes I personally much prefer the more full bodied reds than a Pinot Noir or Burgundy. I thought maybe Cimbrone is the same since that's what he was asking about.
No problem, just didn't get the point, I guess.
</i>
Just exercising my first amendment rights, as far as Fodor's allows, I wrote
"IIWY, I would travel to Burgundy and get your goods up there."
I have no arguement with CdP. I like it, and it is ideal with heavy red meat like a rib roast or venison. I think it is too overpowering for everyday meals. Passetoutgrains is a good wine for almost everything, except white fish and boiled eggs.
Get your corkscrew ready and Happy New Year!
Dec 31st, 2006, 09:36 AM
#28
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Ira, just to answer one of your questions, yes, the 1970 Bordeaux vintage was considered exceptional.
Obviously the wines were very different after 30 years which was the point of the competition.
Obviously the wines were very different after 30 years which was the point of the competition.
Dec 31st, 2006, 11:32 AM
#29
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Cimbrone,
If you can call ahead and make appointments with Clos des Papes (Avril), Rayas, Vieux Telegraphe and Dom. du Pegau, then you will be in good shape.
The 2003 Pegau Reservee is a terrific wine (Mdme. Laurence Ferraud, winemaker/owner of Pegau, will happily accomodate you for tastings and will ship bottles to the US). The futures prices here for the 2003 about a year and half ago was less than $40 and now it is only available for about $90. Ask for and buy the 2004 if she is offering in the winery. It costs about $60 here in the northeast.
Daniel Brunier, the kind owner/winermaker of Ch. Vieux Telegraphe, will gladly accomodate you for tastings. I wouldn't be surprised if you fall for their terific whites.
P_egau, Clos des Papes, Beaucastel and Vieus Telegraphe are reliable producers that I and my more knowledgeable wine-enthusiast friends go for by the cases year in and out.
If you can call ahead and make appointments with Clos des Papes (Avril), Rayas, Vieux Telegraphe and Dom. du Pegau, then you will be in good shape.
The 2003 Pegau Reservee is a terrific wine (Mdme. Laurence Ferraud, winemaker/owner of Pegau, will happily accomodate you for tastings and will ship bottles to the US). The futures prices here for the 2003 about a year and half ago was less than $40 and now it is only available for about $90. Ask for and buy the 2004 if she is offering in the winery. It costs about $60 here in the northeast.
Daniel Brunier, the kind owner/winermaker of Ch. Vieux Telegraphe, will gladly accomodate you for tastings. I wouldn't be surprised if you fall for their terific whites.
P_egau, Clos des Papes, Beaucastel and Vieus Telegraphe are reliable producers that I and my more knowledgeable wine-enthusiast friends go for by the cases year in and out.
Dec 31st, 2006, 11:40 AM
#30
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Oh, and by the way, one poster wrote about Ch Belair. This one has nothing to do with CdP as Saint Emilion is a commune in Bordeaux and is miles away, in wine style and actual distance, from Southern Rhone. By the way, there are better Right Bank Bordeaux wines that can be had for the same value.
Also, and imho, none of the US producers can compare to the ones produced in the Rhone. Complexity, style, lonevity and elegance are unmatched by any US producer at this point.
Also, and imho, none of the US producers can compare to the ones produced in the Rhone. Complexity, style, lonevity and elegance are unmatched by any US producer at this point.
Dec 31st, 2006, 11:57 AM
#31
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I am not so bold in my old age as to say any wine is always the best and that French wines are always superior to those produced elsewhere.
At one point in my life I fancied myself a wine expert. Talk about self delusion!!
Despite gallons of consumption, I am about as expert as my next door neighbor who could not pronounce Chateau Neuf du Pape if someone wrote it out phonetically.
What I have observed is that the best California wines are the equal of just about any. Even self-appointed experts cannot always tell which is which particularly if blindfolded and drinking from an unmarked glass.
In many respects California producers have an edge because of scientific production methods plus the even climate of the Napa Valley. Both factors are conducive to the production of great wines.
In saying that, I believe that great wines produced all over the world and no one area has a monopoly on all the top level ones.
I think the bottom line is that just any bottle with Chateau Neuf du Pape on the label may or may not be as good as a Mondavi or a Krug made from the same variety grape. Unless ones knows the vintage, the region, and even the vinyard where the grapes were grown, the generic name on the label is not 100% indicative of quality.
I personally don't try to bring wines home because it is not worth it. I can go to my local store and ask the guy who runs it what the "potentates" are saying about current best buys. He is usually right because he reads a lot and listens to the market "scuttlebutt."
Price sure is not a reliable indicator of quality. It is more a function of advertising and the circulation of articles written by hired so-called experts.
I remember once I was at a California wine tasting festival. The tout was extolling the virtues of some wine for its full body, smoky flavor, a sauncy lingering flavor on the taste buds, and so on. To believe him was to believe that it was the greatest wine ever produced. I tried some of his juice and decided someone had raided the vinegar supply.
At one point in my life I fancied myself a wine expert. Talk about self delusion!!
Despite gallons of consumption, I am about as expert as my next door neighbor who could not pronounce Chateau Neuf du Pape if someone wrote it out phonetically.
What I have observed is that the best California wines are the equal of just about any. Even self-appointed experts cannot always tell which is which particularly if blindfolded and drinking from an unmarked glass.
In many respects California producers have an edge because of scientific production methods plus the even climate of the Napa Valley. Both factors are conducive to the production of great wines.
In saying that, I believe that great wines produced all over the world and no one area has a monopoly on all the top level ones.
I think the bottom line is that just any bottle with Chateau Neuf du Pape on the label may or may not be as good as a Mondavi or a Krug made from the same variety grape. Unless ones knows the vintage, the region, and even the vinyard where the grapes were grown, the generic name on the label is not 100% indicative of quality.
I personally don't try to bring wines home because it is not worth it. I can go to my local store and ask the guy who runs it what the "potentates" are saying about current best buys. He is usually right because he reads a lot and listens to the market "scuttlebutt."
Price sure is not a reliable indicator of quality. It is more a function of advertising and the circulation of articles written by hired so-called experts.
I remember once I was at a California wine tasting festival. The tout was extolling the virtues of some wine for its full body, smoky flavor, a sauncy lingering flavor on the taste buds, and so on. To believe him was to believe that it was the greatest wine ever produced. I tried some of his juice and decided someone had raided the vinegar supply.
Dec 31st, 2006, 12:08 PM
#32
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I don't claim to be an expert, as I am just a small collector and but an ardent enthusiast with personal and evolving opinions on wines. However, I know very well that the correct way to write it, as opposed to the previous post is:
Chateauneuf du Pape. Not Chateau Neuf Du Pape.
Chateauneuf du Pape. Not Chateau Neuf Du Pape.
Dec 31st, 2006, 01:22 PM
#33
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It is indeed Chateauneuf du Pape. Meaning the "new palace of the pope", a reference to the time that there were two popes, one of which resided in Avignon.
As far as the California vs France question is concerned, here is my 2 cents. I am not going to talk about super premium wines which are out of my reach but rather wine that one can afford for the vast majority of meals at home.
French wine tends to be a much better value for your money. I am talking about prices in France..... You can get a very drinkable bottle of wine for 3 or 4 euros and in the 10 to 12 euro range they can be quite good. IMHO when you talk about California wines you have to spend a minimum of 12$ for a bottle to get something decent and more in the 20 to 25 dollar range for a nice bottle. I also find that California wines tend to be heavy handed on the oaky taste which is popular in the US. You can of course get that flavor in France as well but you can also find a very wide variety of tastes depending on the region of production.
As far as the California vs France question is concerned, here is my 2 cents. I am not going to talk about super premium wines which are out of my reach but rather wine that one can afford for the vast majority of meals at home.
French wine tends to be a much better value for your money. I am talking about prices in France..... You can get a very drinkable bottle of wine for 3 or 4 euros and in the 10 to 12 euro range they can be quite good. IMHO when you talk about California wines you have to spend a minimum of 12$ for a bottle to get something decent and more in the 20 to 25 dollar range for a nice bottle. I also find that California wines tend to be heavy handed on the oaky taste which is popular in the US. You can of course get that flavor in France as well but you can also find a very wide variety of tastes depending on the region of production.
Jan 3rd, 2007, 11:45 AM
#34
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Sorry I seem to have dropped off the planet...have been vacationing in the mountains. Thanks for the excellent advice.
A French friend of some means gave us a small bottle of chateauneuf de pape (Vieux Telegraphe) and I fell in love with it. Wondering what that would cost in the U.S. vs. France. The $25 wholefoods bottle from a vineyard whose name I can find nowhere did not come close to it.
Yes, we'll be in Burgundy (Dijon) and no doubt do some tasting there as well.
A French friend of some means gave us a small bottle of chateauneuf de pape (Vieux Telegraphe) and I fell in love with it. Wondering what that would cost in the U.S. vs. France. The $25 wholefoods bottle from a vineyard whose name I can find nowhere did not come close to it.
Yes, we'll be in Burgundy (Dijon) and no doubt do some tasting there as well.
Jan 3rd, 2007, 12:07 PM
#35
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I know I read that one of the "houses" of Chateauneuf du Pape is experimenting with BOXED wine...yep. That's what I'm saying...BOXED wine, 5 liters and it doesn't go bad...? Problems now with corking... he's giving the boxes a shot.
That would be easy to bring home ...
I was given a good St. Emillion for Christmas; had it Christmas night...niiiiice.
That would be easy to bring home ...
I was given a good St. Emillion for Christmas; had it Christmas night...niiiiice.
