Charge cards
Jan 25th, 2009, 03:25 PM
#21
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BTW...to see some of the regulations of visa and mastercard as it pertains to things like asking for ID, minimum charges, surcharges see:
http://tinyurl.com/dgdav5
People should be aware of their rights and the obligations of merchants who sign merchant agreements.
http://tinyurl.com/dgdav5
People should be aware of their rights and the obligations of merchants who sign merchant agreements.
Jan 25th, 2009, 03:52 PM
#22
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My US credit cards have NOT worked in
RER station at CDG airport
Autostrada exits in Italy
Gas stations in Italy
Metro stations in Paris
So actually, it has been a PIA. At the time I tried each of the above, I was unaware of the C&P cards. I'm aware now, but that doesn't make my cards work. Still a PIA. Wish I had a C&P card.
RER station at CDG airport
Autostrada exits in Italy
Gas stations in Italy
Metro stations in Paris
So actually, it has been a PIA. At the time I tried each of the above, I was unaware of the C&P cards. I'm aware now, but that doesn't make my cards work. Still a PIA. Wish I had a C&P card.
Jan 25th, 2009, 04:03 PM
#23
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We ran into a slight problem only once at a B&B in Ireland where the hostess said her bank would allow only chip and pin cards and that her machine would take only that kind of card. We just popped over to the ATM and got cash. Problem solved there. Otherwise we just told merchants that our card wasn't chip and pin and they accepted it. Some gas stations took our card at the pump; others required going to the cashier. As for road tolls, there was a new system in Ireland whereby you just passed through and later phoned (sticker on the windshield) the company with your credit card for the charge. Great idea that saved lining up and paying at the toll gate.
Jan 25th, 2009, 05:36 PM
#24
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xyz123 - the portable terminals used in restaurants work just fine with an old fashioned magnetic strip card - I use mine all the time. In fact, I believe it is the law in some European countries that the waiter may not walk away with your cc, must process in your sight.
Jan 26th, 2009, 09:31 AM
#25
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xyz123
This may come as a shock but outside America the agreements with the credit card companies are different. They have to be to take account of local laws.
In the UK it is perfectly legal for shops to charge a surcharge for credit card payments.
In other countries it is quite normal and may even be a legal requirement to ask for ID when using a card.
This may come as a shock but outside America the agreements with the credit card companies are different. They have to be to take account of local laws.
In the UK it is perfectly legal for shops to charge a surcharge for credit card payments.
In other countries it is quite normal and may even be a legal requirement to ask for ID when using a card.
Jan 26th, 2009, 11:20 AM
#26
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As I understand it from the discussion, I can't use my US credit card at self-service train ticket kiosks, but will have to go to a staffed window in order to use it. Are we talking about the ticket machines where you pick up the tickets you purchased in advance? Also, if I use my credit card at a window, will they charge me a fee for using a credit card? (I'm planning to get my tickets at Gatwick).
Also, I was trying to use my US ATM card to pay the deposit on a vacation rental (in UK), but it didn't work, and I had to use my credit card for which I was charged a 2% fee. Is this others' experience?
Also, I was trying to use my US ATM card to pay the deposit on a vacation rental (in UK), but it didn't work, and I had to use my credit card for which I was charged a 2% fee. Is this others' experience?
Jan 26th, 2009, 12:20 PM
#28
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Bibiras,
It is likely the 2% fee you saw was your credit card company's foreign currency fee.
I think only Capitol One has resisted adding such a routine fee, but am not certain about that because I have so far resisted their (often) amusing commercials.
It is likely the 2% fee you saw was your credit card company's foreign currency fee.
I think only Capitol One has resisted adding such a routine fee, but am not certain about that because I have so far resisted their (often) amusing commercials.
Jan 26th, 2009, 02:04 PM
#29
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bibiras -
Not all self service machines are alike. Some will accept a non-chip card, some will not. I do not know of any way to tell the difference without actually trying.
There are differences between fees assessed when using your ATM card and when using a CC to get cash. Both likely charge a conversion fee, but with the ATM card you are making a withdrawal and with the CC you are getting a cash advance. Cash advances typically engender near usurious rates. Avoid cash advances if at all possible!
Not all self service machines are alike. Some will accept a non-chip card, some will not. I do not know of any way to tell the difference without actually trying.
There are differences between fees assessed when using your ATM card and when using a CC to get cash. Both likely charge a conversion fee, but with the ATM card you are making a withdrawal and with the CC you are getting a cash advance. Cash advances typically engender near usurious rates. Avoid cash advances if at all possible!
Jan 26th, 2009, 05:19 PM
#30
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Just a word on the Capital One cc without a foreign transaction fee. They do have this card, and if it is the one you want, you have to ask for it. And then I asked about billing dates! The surprise: to pay off the balance without any interest, the bill must be paid within (or by; I can't remember) 15 days of making the charge.
Since I hate to pay interest or fees, I am glad I asked about this and I post myself a reminder to pay online the minute my trip is over. We are never away for that long, but if we were, I could still pay online.
Since I hate to pay interest or fees, I am glad I asked about this and I post myself a reminder to pay online the minute my trip is over. We are never away for that long, but if we were, I could still pay online.
Jan 26th, 2009, 05:33 PM
#31
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sashh...
I don't know what gave you the idea I don't understand that local customs and laws might affect these merchant agreements.
At the same token, sometimes it's a matter of semantics. For example, does the UK simply by law allow surcharges on credit cards or does the law prohibit mc/visa from establishing a policy prohibiting surcharges? Actually the same is true of the actual mc rule regarding ID (obstensibly in the USA but I've seen nothing saying it doesn't apply also in the UK)...the rule does not prohibit a MC merchant from asking for additional ID but it does prohibit said merchant from not completing the transaction just because the customer does not show additional ID...same holds for minimums. Does UK law prohibit mc/visa from putting a provision in their merchant agreements not allowing the imposition of minimums or does UK law simply permit a merchant to establish a minimum for use of a credit card which is then countermandated by the mc/visa agreement?
I could not get any information from google as to whether these consumer protections applicable in the United States also serve to protect consumers in the UK.
I don't profess to know all the answers (just most of them!) but I stand by my judgment that asking me to produce ID to use a credit card does not protect me from fraud and might help lead to theft of my identity which I obviously don't want to happen.
I don't know what gave you the idea I don't understand that local customs and laws might affect these merchant agreements.
At the same token, sometimes it's a matter of semantics. For example, does the UK simply by law allow surcharges on credit cards or does the law prohibit mc/visa from establishing a policy prohibiting surcharges? Actually the same is true of the actual mc rule regarding ID (obstensibly in the USA but I've seen nothing saying it doesn't apply also in the UK)...the rule does not prohibit a MC merchant from asking for additional ID but it does prohibit said merchant from not completing the transaction just because the customer does not show additional ID...same holds for minimums. Does UK law prohibit mc/visa from putting a provision in their merchant agreements not allowing the imposition of minimums or does UK law simply permit a merchant to establish a minimum for use of a credit card which is then countermandated by the mc/visa agreement?
I could not get any information from google as to whether these consumer protections applicable in the United States also serve to protect consumers in the UK.
I don't profess to know all the answers (just most of them!) but I stand by my judgment that asking me to produce ID to use a credit card does not protect me from fraud and might help lead to theft of my identity which I obviously don't want to happen.
Jan 26th, 2009, 06:03 PM
#32
Tuscan, my Capital One card does not charge foreign transaction fees. I do pay off my bill by the due date, but not before then or within fifteen days of making a charge. Possibly there are different plans, but at least for my card, this does not appear to be the case.
Jan 26th, 2009, 09:26 PM
#33
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xyz123...
I think I now understand what rubs you the wrong way about showing ID, but that is probably because of a different level of data protection which exists in the US and the EU.
When I show my ID card in Spain, the merchant has 1/2 a second to look at the picture and compare that with the dude standing in front of him.
How he will even be able to memorize the 9-digit ID number or DOB in fine print is beyond me. I doubt that he could even read it. Even if that person knew my ID number, it would not help much.
There is no fraudulant transaction which got easier by knowing my ID number. You can't look up my data or additional informationon the internet if you knew my name plus my ID number. There are no reverse search engines like you may know where you pay some money to get personal data from another individual.
I think I now understand what rubs you the wrong way about showing ID, but that is probably because of a different level of data protection which exists in the US and the EU.
When I show my ID card in Spain, the merchant has 1/2 a second to look at the picture and compare that with the dude standing in front of him.
How he will even be able to memorize the 9-digit ID number or DOB in fine print is beyond me. I doubt that he could even read it. Even if that person knew my ID number, it would not help much.
There is no fraudulant transaction which got easier by knowing my ID number. You can't look up my data or additional informationon the internet if you knew my name plus my ID number. There are no reverse search engines like you may know where you pay some money to get personal data from another individual.
Jan 26th, 2009, 11:15 PM
#34
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Quick question - if anyone here had to show ID when you used your credit card to make purchases (in England or France, for example), what kind of ID did you show?
What if all you had was your state driver's license? How is the merchant supposed to know that's real? They don't know what each state's license looks like unless if they had a picture of every single one of them. And some states even issue different ID formats...for example the CA driver's license changes year to year...sometimes the picture is on the left, sometimes on the right, sometimes with a small picture icon in the corner, the under-21 persons get a red strip...how are the merchants supposed to know?
My point is...just as we're afraid of getting ripped off by ID theft, they could be just as afraid of getting ripped off with a fake ID.
What if all you had was your state driver's license? How is the merchant supposed to know that's real? They don't know what each state's license looks like unless if they had a picture of every single one of them. And some states even issue different ID formats...for example the CA driver's license changes year to year...sometimes the picture is on the left, sometimes on the right, sometimes with a small picture icon in the corner, the under-21 persons get a red strip...how are the merchants supposed to know?
My point is...just as we're afraid of getting ripped off by ID theft, they could be just as afraid of getting ripped off with a fake ID.
Jan 27th, 2009, 12:32 AM
#35
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I've never been asked to show ID to use a credit card in France....
Until two weeks ago I had never been asked to show ID in the UK. Twice in the past two weeks I was asked to show ID and I refused. As I said, and while I'm not sure if this extend to the UK, MC regs clearly state in the merchant's agreement that while a merchant has a right to ask for ID, they may not refuse a transaction (see the links I have provided)because the customer refuses to show other ID.
I would agree the chances of using the ID to perpetrate ID theft are indeed small but they exist. The clerk invariably simply passes along the info to the vermin running the ID theft rings. Some people are very good at memorizing number even after a brief look and these sophisticated criminal rings have all sorts of means of finding out other info about you from your driver's license number or passport number.
The UK (as well as the USA) is supposed to be a country where privacy rights are protected (I see that there is a good deal of pressure to develop an internal identity card in the UK to deal with the illegal immigration problem but a lot of pressure against it for that reason as in the USA) also they're now talking of requiring a passport to buy a prepaid sim card all the better to track people and again there is some opposition for civil liberty reasons. Asking for other ID when using a credit card is further erosion of individual liberties.
And again, for those who don't understand it. There is a big difference between credit card fraud which is very easily resolved as opposed to identity theft. If showing ID puts my identity in jeopardy, no matter how mall the chance and I will agree it's a small chance but not a non-existant chance, then I nor anybody else will show ID when MC says it is not required!
Until two weeks ago I had never been asked to show ID in the UK. Twice in the past two weeks I was asked to show ID and I refused. As I said, and while I'm not sure if this extend to the UK, MC regs clearly state in the merchant's agreement that while a merchant has a right to ask for ID, they may not refuse a transaction (see the links I have provided)because the customer refuses to show other ID.
I would agree the chances of using the ID to perpetrate ID theft are indeed small but they exist. The clerk invariably simply passes along the info to the vermin running the ID theft rings. Some people are very good at memorizing number even after a brief look and these sophisticated criminal rings have all sorts of means of finding out other info about you from your driver's license number or passport number.
The UK (as well as the USA) is supposed to be a country where privacy rights are protected (I see that there is a good deal of pressure to develop an internal identity card in the UK to deal with the illegal immigration problem but a lot of pressure against it for that reason as in the USA) also they're now talking of requiring a passport to buy a prepaid sim card all the better to track people and again there is some opposition for civil liberty reasons. Asking for other ID when using a credit card is further erosion of individual liberties.
And again, for those who don't understand it. There is a big difference between credit card fraud which is very easily resolved as opposed to identity theft. If showing ID puts my identity in jeopardy, no matter how mall the chance and I will agree it's a small chance but not a non-existant chance, then I nor anybody else will show ID when MC says it is not required!
Jan 27th, 2009, 12:32 AM
#36
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UK law protects consumers from having prices inflated by absurd and illegal demands from foreign banking consortia.
Customers in Britain who don't want to subsidise credit card users may, if their merchant agrees with them, pay less than customers who want free credit. That's the law in the UK.
As in every country, domestic law overides the pretensions of posturing foreign corporations. Whatever agreement MC or Visa might think it's imposed on merchants, that agreement is invalid if it purports to overide our laws.
I've told xyz this before. He still has this idiotic fantasy American banks can ignore our laws.
They can't. Merchants in Britain can impose whatever surcharge they like - and they think the market can bear - on customers who want credit. And any bank trying to prevent this right is committing an offence.
For which the bank's officials, ultimately, can even be extradited to face trial. The UK-US extradition treaty no longer requires an extraditable crime to be an offence in the country where the criminal is taking refuge.
Customers in Britain who don't want to subsidise credit card users may, if their merchant agrees with them, pay less than customers who want free credit. That's the law in the UK.
As in every country, domestic law overides the pretensions of posturing foreign corporations. Whatever agreement MC or Visa might think it's imposed on merchants, that agreement is invalid if it purports to overide our laws.
I've told xyz this before. He still has this idiotic fantasy American banks can ignore our laws.
They can't. Merchants in Britain can impose whatever surcharge they like - and they think the market can bear - on customers who want credit. And any bank trying to prevent this right is committing an offence.
For which the bank's officials, ultimately, can even be extradited to face trial. The UK-US extradition treaty no longer requires an extraditable crime to be an offence in the country where the criminal is taking refuge.
Jan 27th, 2009, 12:52 AM
#37
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Hey flanner..
I never said you were wrong...I admit I don't know all the ins and outs on UK law regarding this stuff...
BTW MC is an international consortium (sp.) of banks...it is not an American corporation...each of the banks has a membership.
And as I said, I understand this idea that local laws may (the operative word being may) preclude what the banks want to do. I've tried a google search to come up with a copy of a UK merchant's agreement in the UK and haven't been able to do so.
Of course the no surcharge rule, even in the USA is a farce, as merchants are allowed to give cash discounts. Some day, somebody will explain to me the difference between surcharging a credit card purchase and a cash discount. About 20 years ago, several of the American oil companies pulled this cash discount garbage claiming to discount gas by 5 or 6 cents a gallon for cash. They had separate pumps for credit csales and cash sales. Then they developed a pump that could do both by pressing either the cash button or the credit button. Lo and behold, just as many station begain installing these pumps (at considerable cost), they realized the program was idiotic and dropped it. But if there are separate pumps for casn against credit, isn't that an illegal surcharge? Or is it a cash discount? Or is there really a difference.
The same holds for minimum purchases with a card. Apparently they are allowed in the UK. What I do think they should require is a sign clearly stating it. About a year ago, I went into a Subway shop with credit card decals and bought a sandwich for about £3...I was told there was a £5 minimum but there was no sign to that effect. They tried to tell me everybody knows there is a £5 minimum for using a credit card in the UK. Well basically I told them I don't walk around with that kind of cash and I guess I would not be able to take the sandwich.
They tried to tell me there was an ATM across the street and I told them I get charged to use the ATM. They had 2 choices, either they take my credit card or I don't take the sandwich. Guess what they decided (and they made a wise choice!)
In any event, without any unnecessary anger, yes I agree. Laws in some countries are different and do preclude the comsumer protections built into the merchant's agreements in the USA. That still doesn't make it right.
I never said you were wrong...I admit I don't know all the ins and outs on UK law regarding this stuff...
BTW MC is an international consortium (sp.) of banks...it is not an American corporation...each of the banks has a membership.
And as I said, I understand this idea that local laws may (the operative word being may) preclude what the banks want to do. I've tried a google search to come up with a copy of a UK merchant's agreement in the UK and haven't been able to do so.
Of course the no surcharge rule, even in the USA is a farce, as merchants are allowed to give cash discounts. Some day, somebody will explain to me the difference between surcharging a credit card purchase and a cash discount. About 20 years ago, several of the American oil companies pulled this cash discount garbage claiming to discount gas by 5 or 6 cents a gallon for cash. They had separate pumps for credit csales and cash sales. Then they developed a pump that could do both by pressing either the cash button or the credit button. Lo and behold, just as many station begain installing these pumps (at considerable cost), they realized the program was idiotic and dropped it. But if there are separate pumps for casn against credit, isn't that an illegal surcharge? Or is it a cash discount? Or is there really a difference.
The same holds for minimum purchases with a card. Apparently they are allowed in the UK. What I do think they should require is a sign clearly stating it. About a year ago, I went into a Subway shop with credit card decals and bought a sandwich for about £3...I was told there was a £5 minimum but there was no sign to that effect. They tried to tell me everybody knows there is a £5 minimum for using a credit card in the UK. Well basically I told them I don't walk around with that kind of cash and I guess I would not be able to take the sandwich.
They tried to tell me there was an ATM across the street and I told them I get charged to use the ATM. They had 2 choices, either they take my credit card or I don't take the sandwich. Guess what they decided (and they made a wise choice!)
In any event, without any unnecessary anger, yes I agree. Laws in some countries are different and do preclude the comsumer protections built into the merchant's agreements in the USA. That still doesn't make it right.
Jan 27th, 2009, 01:05 AM
#38
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I think flanneruk has a point...local laws prevail, regardless of what the credit card company's policy is...think of it this way:
It's illegal in the US to require a minimum amount of purchase to use the credit card, but not so in Europe .
Entering a PIN number isn't required for a cash advance in the US, but in Europe you certainly always have to enter a PIN for cash.
Many stores in the US allow cash backs - that is, you could use your debit card with the visa logo to get cash along with your purchase from a department store. I don't think this is allowed at all in Europe.
In the US, taking your credit card to swipe it at the back of the restaurant/store is not illegal...whereas in Europe, your card is swiped in front of you at your table.
Given these scenarios, I do think that local laws prevail...(but I'm no lawyer)
(everyone please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the above)
It's illegal in the US to require a minimum amount of purchase to use the credit card, but not so in Europe .
Entering a PIN number isn't required for a cash advance in the US, but in Europe you certainly always have to enter a PIN for cash.
Many stores in the US allow cash backs - that is, you could use your debit card with the visa logo to get cash along with your purchase from a department store. I don't think this is allowed at all in Europe.
In the US, taking your credit card to swipe it at the back of the restaurant/store is not illegal...whereas in Europe, your card is swiped in front of you at your table.
Given these scenarios, I do think that local laws prevail...(but I'm no lawyer)
(everyone please correct me if I'm wrong on any of the above)
Jan 27th, 2009, 01:14 AM
#39
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> About a year ago, I went into a Subway shop with credit card decals and bought a sandwich for about £3...I was told there was a £5 minimum but there was no sign to that effect. They tried to tell me everybody knows there is a £5 minimum for using a credit card in the UK. Well basically I told them I don't walk around with that kind of cash and I guess I would not be able to take the sandwich.
xyz123, I see your point as a fellow American, but try to see it from the perspective of the merchant. They have to pay a fee for every credit card sale transaction. If they don't charge you that £5 minimum, they'd be practically giving you that sandwich for free. They're not trying to rip you off, they're just trying to keep a sustainable business.
I understand how you feel about your rights, and I definitely would object to the minimum purchase requirement if that happened in the US, but when I'm in Europe, I play by their rules.
As a result, shopping in other countries is a breeze...because I understand and respect their policies.
xyz123, I see your point as a fellow American, but try to see it from the perspective of the merchant. They have to pay a fee for every credit card sale transaction. If they don't charge you that £5 minimum, they'd be practically giving you that sandwich for free. They're not trying to rip you off, they're just trying to keep a sustainable business.
I understand how you feel about your rights, and I definitely would object to the minimum purchase requirement if that happened in the US, but when I'm in Europe, I play by their rules.
As a result, shopping in other countries is a breeze...because I understand and respect their policies.
Jan 27th, 2009, 01:21 AM
#40
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Oh, and I really would hate to say this...but I must...I think that insisting a sandwich shop with a £5 minimum to accept your purchase of £3 just because that's allowed in the US would qualify as a behavior of an Ugly American.
(So sorry if anyone feels offended, but I really had to mention this -- nothing personal.)
(So sorry if anyone feels offended, but I really had to mention this -- nothing personal.)
