Bullfight schedule
Feb 17th, 2006, 05:07 AM
#21
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This is certainly an interesting topic, travel-related with good points on both sides. However, when one side resorts to insult the other to make the point, that is when they lose credibility. People don't take that well and any intelligent person would know not to do it.
Neil, if you feel you had to call somebody stupid to make your point, then you probably should be listening instead.
Neil, if you feel you had to call somebody stupid to make your point, then you probably should be listening instead.
Feb 17th, 2006, 06:19 AM
#22
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In my experience, bullfights can vary from art to disgrace -- sometimes in the same afternoon. Most often they are simply routine, and you'll wonder what all the fuss is about. When you finally attend a great bullfight, you will understand.
That said, there are people who will never get it, just as some never get ballet, and others who so identify or sympathize with the animals, both horses and bulls, that the experience is painful. You never know who they will be; I have known animal lovers excited by the bullfight, and hunters who despise it.
My advice is to see one before you make your mind up -- you may be someone you don't think you'd like! If you do not wish to attend or still hate the bullfight after you've seen one, I hope you will let those of us who find some merit in the proceedings to continue on our wayward path.
"Bullfighting is the last serious thing." -- F. Garcia Lorca
That said, there are people who will never get it, just as some never get ballet, and others who so identify or sympathize with the animals, both horses and bulls, that the experience is painful. You never know who they will be; I have known animal lovers excited by the bullfight, and hunters who despise it.
My advice is to see one before you make your mind up -- you may be someone you don't think you'd like! If you do not wish to attend or still hate the bullfight after you've seen one, I hope you will let those of us who find some merit in the proceedings to continue on our wayward path.
"Bullfighting is the last serious thing." -- F. Garcia Lorca
Feb 17th, 2006, 06:57 AM
#23
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Yes, killing as an art. The poor animal should be proud that he is killed artfully. Someone should better tell him that and he would enter the arena appreciating it more.
The bull is dead even before entering the arena, what skill is there to that?
You were born with it and is part of your nature, that's why it seems so natural to you.
Be aware that animals feel pain but nobody jumps to their defense. Think of the stress that the bull is subjected to, as if it's not enough that he is a victim anyway. However, how is a man above an animal if he is so cruel? Animals deserve more respect than men. Animals are not cruel, they do not kill for pleasure, whereas men do.
And so what Garcia Lorca said that? There are lots of big names against animal killing as well. It's not who said what, but what is right and what is not right. Big names said it wrong many times.
Let the matador be alone in front of the bull, bare handed and then use his "art" in putting the bull down.
The bull is dead even before entering the arena, what skill is there to that?
You were born with it and is part of your nature, that's why it seems so natural to you.
Be aware that animals feel pain but nobody jumps to their defense. Think of the stress that the bull is subjected to, as if it's not enough that he is a victim anyway. However, how is a man above an animal if he is so cruel? Animals deserve more respect than men. Animals are not cruel, they do not kill for pleasure, whereas men do.
And so what Garcia Lorca said that? There are lots of big names against animal killing as well. It's not who said what, but what is right and what is not right. Big names said it wrong many times.
Let the matador be alone in front of the bull, bare handed and then use his "art" in putting the bull down.
Feb 17th, 2006, 08:59 AM
#24
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"Yes, killing as an art. The poor animal should be proud that he is killed artfully."
Well their stance in the ring indicates some self-respect, if you go in for anthropomorphizing.
"Someone should better tell him that and he would enter the arena appreciating it more."
Their language skills are limited.
"The bull is dead even before entering the arena, what skill is there to that?"
Try entering an arena after you're dead and then tell me it doesn't take skill.
"You were born with it and is part of your nature, that's why it seems so natural to you."
I was born with what, exactly? I'm not Spanish, if that's what you mean.
"Be aware that animals feel pain but nobody jumps to their defense."
Oh, you're doing quite well.
"Think of the stress that the bull is subjected to, as if it's not enough that he is a victim anyway."
I try not to anthropomorphize.
"However, how is a man above an animal if he is so cruel?"
We haven't established the cruelty yet. Neither of course does cruelty alone determine ones relative stature.
"Animals deserve more respect than men."
"Wonders are many, and none are more wonderful than man." -- Sophocles
"Animals are not cruel, they do not kill for pleasure, whereas men do."
Check out your cat some day, then come back and say it with a straight face.
"And so what Garcia Lorca said that?"
Oops, guess that Sophocles quote won't sway you either . . .
"There are lots of big names against animal killing as well. It's not who said what, but what is right and what is not right."
Of which you are quite sure.
"Big names said it wrong many times."
Also little names. I wonder who is right? Oh, I know! I'll let other people decide for themselves!!!
"Let the matador be alone in front of the bull, bare handed and then use his "art" in putting the bull down."
You can attend that sort of show if you wish.
Honestly, I wish you well. I should have known better than to post to this thread.
Well their stance in the ring indicates some self-respect, if you go in for anthropomorphizing.
"Someone should better tell him that and he would enter the arena appreciating it more."
Their language skills are limited.
"The bull is dead even before entering the arena, what skill is there to that?"
Try entering an arena after you're dead and then tell me it doesn't take skill.
"You were born with it and is part of your nature, that's why it seems so natural to you."
I was born with what, exactly? I'm not Spanish, if that's what you mean.
"Be aware that animals feel pain but nobody jumps to their defense."
Oh, you're doing quite well.
"Think of the stress that the bull is subjected to, as if it's not enough that he is a victim anyway."
I try not to anthropomorphize.
"However, how is a man above an animal if he is so cruel?"
We haven't established the cruelty yet. Neither of course does cruelty alone determine ones relative stature.
"Animals deserve more respect than men."
"Wonders are many, and none are more wonderful than man." -- Sophocles
"Animals are not cruel, they do not kill for pleasure, whereas men do."
Check out your cat some day, then come back and say it with a straight face.
"And so what Garcia Lorca said that?"
Oops, guess that Sophocles quote won't sway you either . . .
"There are lots of big names against animal killing as well. It's not who said what, but what is right and what is not right."
Of which you are quite sure.
"Big names said it wrong many times."
Also little names. I wonder who is right? Oh, I know! I'll let other people decide for themselves!!!
"Let the matador be alone in front of the bull, bare handed and then use his "art" in putting the bull down."
You can attend that sort of show if you wish.
Honestly, I wish you well. I should have known better than to post to this thread.
Feb 17th, 2006, 09:34 AM
#25
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Pausanias--a mixture of sophomoric humor and big words will not hide you from your indefensible position. You think that someone who says animals feel stress is "anthropomorphis[ing]"? That is one of the most bizarre things I have ever read. (Perhaps saying that they feel pain is anthropomorphising as well?) Are you suggesting that they don't feel stress or are you suggesting that it doesn't bother you that they do? At least the second of these is honest.
That bullfights are cruel is undeniable; only sadists and the extremely shallow could enjoy one.
That bullfights are cruel is undeniable; only sadists and the extremely shallow could enjoy one.
Feb 17th, 2006, 09:38 AM
#26
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Pausanias,
Although I suspect I will regret posting, I agree wholeheartedly.
I have attended the fights in Spain. It is an art. Although many despise it, it is a feature of Spanish life. If you choose not to partake, then do not go, I suspect the Spanish will not care. As for Lorraine, you should go and then decide for yourself.
And by way of background, I grew up on a farm. Bulls, by their very nature are nasty, dangerous creatures. They do kill out of instinct, both heifers, calves and farmers. That's why they are ringed. And believe me what goes on in a slaughter house in North America makes what goes on in the ring in Seville look civilized.
Although I suspect I will regret posting, I agree wholeheartedly.
I have attended the fights in Spain. It is an art. Although many despise it, it is a feature of Spanish life. If you choose not to partake, then do not go, I suspect the Spanish will not care. As for Lorraine, you should go and then decide for yourself.
And by way of background, I grew up on a farm. Bulls, by their very nature are nasty, dangerous creatures. They do kill out of instinct, both heifers, calves and farmers. That's why they are ringed. And believe me what goes on in a slaughter house in North America makes what goes on in the ring in Seville look civilized.
Feb 17th, 2006, 10:14 AM
#27
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"Pausanias--a mixture of sophomoric humor and big words will not hide you from your indefensible position."
My indefensible position is not looking for me.
"You think that someone who says animals feel stress is "anthropomorphis[ing]"?"
Someone who assumes animals feel stress when they, the person, would is anthropomorphizing. So is someone who thinks animals feel victimized -- a trait refreshingly rare in the animal kingdom.
"That is one of the most bizarre things I have ever read."
Try Steve Martin's "Cruel Shoes" . . .
"(Perhaps saying that they feel pain is anthropomorphising as well?)"
No, but assuming it's the same way you feel pain is probably wrong.
"Are you suggesting that they don't feel stress or are you suggesting that it doesn't bother you that they do?"
See above.
"At least the second of these is honest."
It appears to be your honest perception, anyway . . .
"That bullfights are cruel is undeniable;"
I do not deny it, which is not to say that you, or gabriel, have proven it.
"only sadists and the extremely shallow could enjoy one."
Only the extremely self-righteous could say so.
My indefensible position is not looking for me.
"You think that someone who says animals feel stress is "anthropomorphis[ing]"?"
Someone who assumes animals feel stress when they, the person, would is anthropomorphizing. So is someone who thinks animals feel victimized -- a trait refreshingly rare in the animal kingdom.
"That is one of the most bizarre things I have ever read."
Try Steve Martin's "Cruel Shoes" . . .
"(Perhaps saying that they feel pain is anthropomorphising as well?)"
No, but assuming it's the same way you feel pain is probably wrong.
"Are you suggesting that they don't feel stress or are you suggesting that it doesn't bother you that they do?"
See above.
"At least the second of these is honest."
It appears to be your honest perception, anyway . . .
"That bullfights are cruel is undeniable;"
I do not deny it, which is not to say that you, or gabriel, have proven it.
"only sadists and the extremely shallow could enjoy one."
Only the extremely self-righteous could say so.
Feb 17th, 2006, 10:20 AM
#28
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Lorraine, how old are your friends that they can't find out when the bull slaughters are taking place in Spain. I'm sure it is YOU that wants to know and you are trying to take the cowardly way out.
How anyone can say there is an art to all of this is crazy. How fair is the fight if the bulls have already been speared before entering the arena?
It really doesn't say much for one's character to enjoy the "art" of the bullfight.
Pausanias - all you have to do is enter the arena babbling on the way you do and the poor bull would die from boredom.
How anyone in their right mind could say they love watching a bullfight is, in my opinion, a person without soul of feelings.
How anyone can say there is an art to all of this is crazy. How fair is the fight if the bulls have already been speared before entering the arena?
It really doesn't say much for one's character to enjoy the "art" of the bullfight.
Pausanias - all you have to do is enter the arena babbling on the way you do and the poor bull would die from boredom.
How anyone in their right mind could say they love watching a bullfight is, in my opinion, a person without soul of feelings.
Feb 17th, 2006, 10:37 AM
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TorontoSteve --
You better watch out or the polite and learned Madison will come after you too!
Madison -- The bulls are not speared, they are pic-ed, and they are pic-ed after they are in the ring. I'm sure you understand all about the role of the picadors and the rest. I just wanted to refresh your memory.
You better watch out or the polite and learned Madison will come after you too!
Madison -- The bulls are not speared, they are pic-ed, and they are pic-ed after they are in the ring. I'm sure you understand all about the role of the picadors and the rest. I just wanted to refresh your memory.
Feb 17th, 2006, 10:56 AM
#31
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Is this forum about travellers sharing the benefit of their experiences with other travellers, or is it about selling one's particular value system? Obviously the former...I don't think it's appropriate to jump all over someone because they happen not to share one's own tastes and ideas.
Go and see a bullfight, Lorraine, and make up your OWN mind.
Go and see a bullfight, Lorraine, and make up your OWN mind.
Feb 17th, 2006, 11:03 AM
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Pausanias - I wasn't in the least offended by what you just said about me. I am proud to say I am not very saavy with the technical terms of the bullfight, whether a bull is stabbed or pic-ed, whether it is an arena or a ring. All I know about the bullfight is that, in my opinion, it isn't a very civilized sport. I would think with all the beauty Spain has to offer why would someone want to sit in the hot sun and watch a gorey spectacle? Oops, I forgot...it's an art.
Feb 17th, 2006, 11:06 AM
#33
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"Is this forum about travellers sharing the benefit of their experiences with other travellers, or is it about selling one's particular value system? Obviously the former...I don't think it's appropriate to jump all over someone because they happen not to share one's own tastes and ideas. "
Would you say the same if someone was asking for recommendations for names on Patpong Road? They would be posting on the wrong forum I know, but I use this as an example. People should IMHO be able to express their views and revlusion - but should not resort to insults
Would you say the same if someone was asking for recommendations for names on Patpong Road? They would be posting on the wrong forum I know, but I use this as an example. People should IMHO be able to express their views and revlusion - but should not resort to insults
Feb 17th, 2006, 11:06 AM
#34
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Well, personally disparaging and insulting others often makes a point. It is curious though, how the ones who have posted here suggesting that Lorraine should go to a bullfight and make an informed decision, have been attacked.
One can only assume that a curious person should accept the pre-determined beliefs of another - and not bother questioning or seeing for oneself. Perhaps we should all buy National Geographic dvds and just stop travelling.
One can only assume that a curious person should accept the pre-determined beliefs of another - and not bother questioning or seeing for oneself. Perhaps we should all buy National Geographic dvds and just stop travelling.
Feb 17th, 2006, 11:15 AM
#35
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"Well, personally disparaging and insulting others often makes a point." It certainly makes a point - but so does punching someone in the face! The point is the point can/should be made w/o resulting to insults
Jun 1st, 2006, 01:03 PM
#37
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When it comes to banning (burning) worthless books, let's not forget Papa's last tome, "The Dangerous Summer", rife with barbarism. We can even ban such works as "Or I'll Dress You In Mourning" the story of El Cordobes (Manuel Benítez), and the newly published "Death and the Sun" by Edward Lewine. We could also ban the soon to be released documentary "El Fandi Matador", a film by Steven Higgins as just another attempt to glamorize a barbarous sport.
Jun 1st, 2006, 04:41 PM
#39
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I forgot to add "or you can read these books and what the documentary and find out a little more about the sport and art of bullfighting and the skill, training and discipline that's involved in this form of mortal combat".
Jun 3rd, 2006, 06:28 PM
#40
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Lorraine,
My husband and I are planning a similar trip at that time. However in all our looking we saw nothing of this Fiesta de Pilar. Can you give us any info on it? We're trying to plan on which city to be in at which time right now.
Also, I believe I saw a bullfight schedule for the whole year in Madrid which went through that weekend or the following. Not sure about Sevilla though. Unfortunately all I can find is the next few weeks, anyone know where I can find the full schedule again?
Thanks all
My husband and I are planning a similar trip at that time. However in all our looking we saw nothing of this Fiesta de Pilar. Can you give us any info on it? We're trying to plan on which city to be in at which time right now.
Also, I believe I saw a bullfight schedule for the whole year in Madrid which went through that weekend or the following. Not sure about Sevilla though. Unfortunately all I can find is the next few weeks, anyone know where I can find the full schedule again?
Thanks all
